Transcript

0:05:07>> and ask Alicia to do a roll call, please. Yes, sir. Thank you. Good evening, everyone. We'll start tonight's roll call, as usual, with Councilmember Adams. Present. Benjamin. Present. Mayor Brockett. Present. Councilmember Kaplan. Present. Marquez. Here. Schwartz. Here. Spears. Present. Wallach. Here. And Mayor Pro Tem Weiner. Present. Mayor, we have our quorum. Thanks so much. Well, we will start with open comments. So, Alicia, if you could go over our public participation guidelines, please. That would be much appreciated. Thank you, sir. Thank you, and good evening, everyone, and thank you for your participation at tonight's council meeting. We ask that you abide by the rules of decorum found in the motor revised code. This includes participants are required to sign up to speak using the name they are commonly known by. Individuals must display their whole name before being allowed to speak online.

1 Call to Order and Roll Call

2 Open Comment

0:06:22Only audio testimony is permitted during open comment. No attendee shall disrupt, disturb, or otherwise impede the orderly conduct of any council meeting in a manner that obstructs the business of the meeting. This also includes failing to obey any lawful order of the presiding officer to leave the meeting room or refrain from addressing the council. All remarks and testimony shall be limited to matters related to city business. No participant shall make threats or use other forms of intimidation against any person. And lastly, obscenity, other epithets based on race, gender, or religion, and other speech and behavior that disrupts or otherwise impedes the meeting will not be tolerated. Again, thank you for joining us, and thank you for listening. Thanks so much for that, Elisha. So, um we have a number of people, several people here who need interpretation for their remarks, and so we're going to group those folks together at the beginning uh for ease of interpretation. So, uh appreciate your uh acceptance of that. And uh Elisha, do we have them grouped on the Okay, excellent. So, we already should be in order. So, I'm going to read three names at a time.

0:07:41Um everyone will have 2 minutes to speak and I will be strict about that two-minute time period in the interest of fairness. So, our first three speakers are Neil Friedman, Amela Alkonvik and Marcus Christopher. So, Neil Friedman, if you can get started, please. You can come on up here to the podium. I I choose to withdraw. Okay. I choose rather to write my my page writing. Very good. We'll look forward to your testimony in writing. Okay, so we'll go to Amela Alkanvik and I apologize for mispronouncing that as our first speaker. Doesn't look like it. So, we will go to Marcus Christopher then. Okay, come on up to the podium. My name is Marcus Christopher. Um good evening, everybody. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight on behalf of San Lazaro um community.

0:08:52I've been speaking with some of the residents there for a couple of weeks and I came away with probably one moment where I realized that this housing issue that we were discussing tonight is a little bit more than what I anticipated. It was more than stable housing, but it was more about dignity. It was more about um long-term benefits of the community. So, I started to read some things and I thought I would share some of my readings with people tonight and findings. A stable home creates the foundation for which children learn, families grow, workers contribute, and neighbors connect. When families are able to remain rooted in their communities, children perform better in school, parents experience greater financial and emotional stability, health outcomes improve, and employers benefit from a more reliable and productive workforce. Housing stability is not a single issue.

0:09:54It touches every system we care about as a city. Long-term studies by the Institute Institute of Labor Economics show people with stable housing are more likely to gain and maintain employment because housing provides a reliable address, safer sleep, and improved health, transportation stability, and an improved ability to attend work consistently. Research summarized by the National Housing Conference found affordable and stable housing reduces stress, improves access to health care, and nutrition. We are not asking the city to solve this challenge alone. We're asking for partnership, visibility, and support for a model that empowers the community >> So, I'm afraid your time is up, but thank you for your testimony. Our next three speakers are Elizabeth Hieronymus, John Bellos, and David Ulrick. Is Elizabeth present now? Is she able to speak? Uh we'll come back to her. So, is uh is Elizabeth here?

0:11:12Greetings. My name is Elizabeth Hieronymus, and I'm a member of the San Lazaro community. Tonight, we have many wonderful members of the community with us. If you are here to support San Lazaro, please raise your hand. Thank you for everyone. For the rest of my time, I will be sharing a story that was submitted as part of our demographic collections. People chose to anonymously submit stories representing their time in San Lazaro. I'm terrified I will have to move out of San Lazaro. People take care of each other here. There are families and immigrants and people with disabilities just like me. Older folks and many people living off of low incomes. There are people who have to become creative to survive. There are a number of small business owners like me, too. Some of whom can't find a job that works for them and they've been able to create their own.

0:12:15We are resourceful people and we understand interdependence and we contribute to the Boulder community in so many ways. I cannot find anywhere else to go. Boulder's affordable affordable programs are not accessible to me. They are structured for a narrow demographic of people. I am afraid I will be out on the streets along with my neighbors if the rent grows with no limits. People are going to be displaced. It's already a really scary time in the US. The safety net is crumbling. I'm truly afraid of what will happen if someone else buys the park. When you don't have a home, everything else is really tough to keep up. The last thing that people stop paying when they aren't making ends meet is rent and housing. They'll go food and medic forgo food and medication and that really says something.

0:13:10Lots of people have experienced tragedies here. This is about survival. Thank you for your testimony. All right, we're going to go to John Bellos now and then David Ulrick and then we'll come back to Amela. >> Good evening, mayor and council members. My name is John Bellos and I've lived in San Lazaro for 8 years. As you've already heard tonight, San Lazaro is fighting for its future and I want to make a finer point on what's at stake for Boulder. But first, let me quickly summarize our situation. We've received a letter of intent to sell from the park owner. We've connected with Thistle, with the Boulder County Commissioners, and just this week we met with your relevant housing staff. We formed a steering committee and we're fighting for our community. But the clock is short and the stakes are enormous.

0:14:06If an outside investor buys San Lazaro instead, history is brutally clear about what happens next. Lot rents spike and families get pushed out. Families that have lived here for decades. I understand we are not your jurisdiction, but we are your community. 70% of our households include someone who works in Boulder. 16 of us are employed by the Boulder Valley School District and more than 140 of our children fill BVSD classrooms in a district already struggling with declining enrollment. We are one of the last truly affordable neighborhoods left in the valley and we are your workers, your students, and your neighbors. So, here's the ask. We know the city cannot solve this alone, but you can raise the alarm. Tell Boulder County this is a priority and that it matters to the city. Make it clear to your staff that helping San Lazaro is a top priority.

0:15:05Lend us your expertise, help us find the financial partners, and use every bit of political and financial weight you have to aid us. San Lazaro's 213 families that are asking for your help. Thank you. Now, we'll go to David Ulrich and then Emil Alkanovich. I am here in I am here in support of our San Lazaro Steering Committee. As you are probably aware, we have recently been offered the opportunity to purchase our neighborhood. San Lazaro is a safe, stable home community where 800 residents live in on the edge of Boulder. We are trying to put together the financing to cover the 42.5 million the current owners want for the property. If we are not successful, the park most likely will be purchased by a private equity company like Haven Park Communities, a Utah-based private equity company which has made several acquisitions in Colorado in recent years, including Hickory Village Mobile Home Park in Fort Collins where they raised the rent 45% after purchase, the Green Acres Mobile Home Park in Aurora where they which they purchased for 42 million in August of 2023.

0:16:32The Des Moines Register reports that Haven Park raised the lot rent by 69% immediately after their purchase of of a park there. Esther Sullivan in her book Manufactured Insecurity refers to mobile home park residents as captive class tenants. Sullivan and housing advocates use that term to describe the inherent trap of the land lease business model because owners cannot leave, private equity firms often continually raise lot rents leaving residents vulnerable to displacement, forced sales, or even confiscation. We are asking the City of Boulder for any help you can offer to help us purchase our park and keep it the safe, stable, family-oriented community it has been since its founding in 1970. Thank you. Thank you. And I believe the last person speaking who needs the interpretation is Amela Alkanovic. So Good evening. My name is Amela Alkanovic and I am a resident of San Lazaro Mobile Home Park.

0:17:48I'm a member of the resident committee and a mother of four children. I'm here today because I'm deeply concerned about the notice of sale and the importance it it could have on our on our children's um families and entire community. I experienced displacements for the first time at the age of five. The same age my youngest son is now. Since then, I have experienced displacements multiple times and I know firsthand the fear, instability, and trauma it causes children. Rebuilding my life took many years and has been a long healing process. For the past 21 years, San Lazaro has been the place where I built my family, found stability, and created a sense of home. The other day, I was driving home from the store with my daughter rushing to make it to the resident committee meeting.

0:18:48She knew about the situation and asked me "Mom what will happen to us? Will we be displaced? Is someone helping our situation?" Hearing those questions from my child was heartbreaking. No child should have the to carry that kind of fear and uncertainty. San Lazaro families are hard working people who have overcome many hardships. We support one another, respect one another, and have built a strong and caring community together. Many families here have spent years rebuilding their lives. And the possibility of losing our homes is devastating. Selma Lazar is more than a mobile home park. It's It's our home. In this time of uncertainty, we respectfully ask for your support in helping residents purchase the park. Thank you. >> Thank you. So, normally we wait until the end of open comment to respond to speakers, but given the translation that's going on right now, I'd like to pause here and turn to city staff and ask for any responses that you have to the speakers so far.

0:20:00Thanks so much, Mayor. And with your indulgence, I might switch the order and speak in Spanish first. Por favor. So, >> I will switch around a minute. It's not often that I get the pleasure of speaking in my native tongue. But I What I really wanted to say was thank you for joining us tonight. I wanted folks to know that we in the city are very supportive of these efforts. I know our staff has been in communication and will continue to work with you during this period of transition and possible future annexation. We've also been in communication with the county who have also expressed their interest and support for this effort. I know there is still work to be done to fine-tune the details, but I am very much looking forward to however we can best support you in this cooperative in achieving its ownership goals. We are with you.

0:21:31Thanks so much for that, Neria. Um do any counselors have questions for staff on this on this speakers so far? Mark. Um the purchase price is 42 million. Is there any appraisal of the property? Uh it's interesting that you have asked. The county and uh the city have agreed to do a new appraisal. We are splitting that cost and we will share as we can. Okay. And um are there any uh and I know times are difficult, but are there any uh funding mechanisms that could be brought to bear to assist in this uh effort? I believe that we have some ability to support financially. I know that our staff has been um thinking about that and as we know more details and we get closer, we will share with you. We will first share with community, but certainly we will come back. Okay, thank you.

0:22:31Now I I assume if there's anything you need from us, you'll bring that to us. I will never wait. >> >> Thank you. May I offer a word of thanks as well? Um I just wanted to thank everyone for coming out tonight and um talking with us. I really appreciate that you um trust us and saw us as somebody uh a group that that can offer some support and I know our staff are so capable um and and will be there to help and and will be there as needed, but thank you so much and just I so admire your advocacy and and all the work that you're doing together through community. Thank you. Great. And I'll just um add thanks Nereo for the words that you said. I support those 100% and I'll just mention I was talking to a county commissioner about San Lazaro just recently and we uh expressed to each other how we had a shared interest in making this purchase happen. So, hopefully we'll be able to make that successful. And thank you so much for coming to speak to us tonight.

0:23:23And with that, I'll move on to the rest of open comment. So, our next three speakers are Eve Patrich and Jeff Calhoun virtually and then Daniel Howard in person. I see them online. Let me check with Lisa. She's monitoring the online speakers. Um I do not see them on my side. Not sure if I'm having a glitch of some sort. Okay. Well, let's go to Jeff Calhoun and then we'll come back later to see if he's present. You can hear us? Good. I'll proceed then. I would certainly briefly like to support just as a community member our brothers and sisters at San Lazaro. It actually is adjacent to the property that I wanted to talk about tonight. And that is the airport. Um I've been following this for a long time. And it's an interesting one. My parent I grew up in a pro uh private aircraft uh household. My both my parents had pilots licenses and flew.

0:25:12Um I'm a big believer in it. I'm also a big believer in people paying for uh their um their way in the world, particularly those who own million-dollar aircraft. Uh which are basically antiques in this day and age. The area of the municipal airport is with having the the idea of turning it over basically to an antiquated organization like FAA when that is a private uh excuse me, a public resource uh that we need to maintain and potentially potentially over the years convert. Uh I think it would make a lot of sense for us to look at that as part of our comprehensive plan and to emphasize local control. That is a city resource. That is a city resource that should be maintained. You could imagine in the next few years virtual takeoff and landing needs in that area given the new way that things are happening with drones, etc.

0:26:19There are too many changes to be considered to maintain an you know, miles long uh airport for antique aircraft. And simply, we shouldn't support the airport with public money from the government. We should support it with landing fees. If you can afford an aircraft, you can afford landing fees. You're right, Marjorie. Thank you so much for your testimony. Right, I understand we have Eve Partridge online now, so let's go to Eve. Hi, can you hear me? Yes. Okay, great. I want a just city council that supports diverse community, not as a performative gesture, but as a genuine desire for healing, and not just millionaire choices that serve a select few. A council that will educate itself of its blind spots among communities experiencing genocide. Truly no room for bigotry. While whole towns in Lebanon and Gaza are destroyed, I spoke with a friend who was frightened for his parents in Lebanon that didn't evacuate since they were tired of continuously having to leave.

0:27:28They chose to potentially die in their homes after being terrorized by Israel and US bombs. He was shaking from fear for their lives. Another friend I spoke with had shrapnel removed from his body from the summers he spent in the West Bank from Israeli terror. He was grateful there was awareness of the hell they were experiencing. These are your constituents. White phosphorus sprayed over Lebanon and Gaza, which glyphosate Roundup is a milder derivative, sponsored by US government and chemical companies now Bayer and Monsanto that were originally contributed to the Nazis to be used against Jews, Roma, and LGBTQIA people. Mass surveillance and racisms towards Islamic and Arabic communities has been an insult since before and after 9/11 and has only benefited an imperialist colonialist warmongering narrative. There's nothing supremacist about white terror. It's simply terror, not even the precursors of terrorism as this council accused the community of last year.

0:28:30Trump removed the page of the government website with statistics of white terror at 70% of all terror attacks in the US as seen in the recent mosque shooting in California 2 days ago. Many are hurting from bigotry, violence from government, media, social services, justice, and medical systems. I want to just community council that is inclusive and doesn't perpetuate division and existence up, but thank you. Great, the rest of our speakers are in person. The next three are Daniel Howard, Kathy Arp, and Matthew Bible. Uh hello Mayor and Council members. Uh my name is Daniel Howard. I'm speaking in a personal capacity, not on behalf of the EAB or NCAR. I ask you to place a ballot measure in the next election so Boulder residents can decide whether the city should maintain local control of the municipal airport. This measure This measure should use the tightly scoped structure the prior prior re-purpose of runways question, which while supporting airport questions and operations until 2040. Supporters claim the airport as a critical science hub, but facts show otherwise. NCAR's two major NSF research aircraft, HIAPER and the C-130, are based and managed at the NCAR Research Aviation Facility in Broomfield, not here. When these aircraft fly weather and air quality missions, they they missions, they operate from Broomfield.

0:29:43Supporters also cite cite Scientific Aviation LLC. However, Scientific Aviation was acquired by ChampionX in 2021 and is now part of ChampionX Mission Technologies, now under SLB, a large global oil and gas services conglomerate. Their operations here are no longer as public-serving research program, but one small part of a global fossil fuel services portfolio. Also, past wildfire and disaster operations utilize helipads rather than the airport's short runways, which are impractical for such operation operations. In short, the cited scientific and disaster use cases, excepting the research NEON, whose planes are based at BDU, either rely on Broomfield or embedded in a multinational fossil fuel company. This is not a sufficient reason sufficient reason to block Boulder residents from deciding on FAA grants to constrain our choices for decades. You have a strong model in the prior airport ballot initiative, which sought local control with with allowances for emergency only helicopter use and guidance for a managed transition.

0:30:32Please use that approach to draft a simple ballot measure on local control of the airport so voters, not the FAA, determine Boulder's long-term path for this land. Allowing the FAA to exert perpetual control echoes recent context of similar government agencies usurping control of land occupied by native indigenous Americans or the government of Israel taking land from Palestinians. Instead, I urge you to let the community decide. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Now we have Kathy Arp, Matthew Bible, and Emerson Sturgis. Hello, my name is Kathy Arp and since July Why don't you bring that 2025 Bring the mic down a little bit. I have lived at Golden West. I come from the East Coast and decided to move to this lovely state, but it was difficult to find affordable housing. And when I came across Golden West offering free television cable and TV, it kind of sealed the deal for me to move here.

0:31:39But unfortunately, as of September 1st, that is going away with no reason why. That puts a lot of people in jeopardy, especially our residents who are disabled, have mobility problems, and really feel comfortable just in their home. By taking away their only communication of really the outside world to me will have a profound effect on their health. And I thank you for giving me this opportunity. Thank you. Now we'll go to Matthew Bible, Emerson Sturgis, and Happy Ingham. Hello. First, thank you >> Raise the microphone up, please. Thank you, Mayor and council people, for allowing me to speak. So, the airport of today is not the airport of yesteryear. Flight operations of the worst kind, school, touch-and-goes, and glider pull operations have increased manyfold over years over the recent years and decades. They are of the worst kind because they contribute the most to the lead and noise problems and the ones that routinely ignore the airport's own flight rule guidance.

0:33:05Flight path guidance. Additionally, there's no enforcement by the airport or the FAA for pilots to mind this guidance. Experience has shown that if a person asks for some governance from the airport or FAA, they are not only ignored, but they suffer even worse behavior from the pilots. Have any pilots received warnings or fines for ignoring airport flight path rules? As someone who is impacted by many daily operations, I think not. So, history has shown that the FAA has no interest in enforcing the transition to unleaded fuel. There's no mandates. And just as they have no interest in having the piston planes transition to technology widely in use in Europe to reduce engine noise and prop noise. Given the track record of the FAA, why does the council want to give them permanent power to prevent Boulder from enforcing sensible local regulations?

0:34:15I believe the decisions as the future as to the future of the airport uh property and operations belong to the citizens Boulder, not the FAA. Our goal should be local control. Thank you. Now, we'll go Emerson Sturgis, Hep Ingham, and Laura Kaplan. Trump is trying to become a dictator. He meets several key aspects of fascism, including authoritarianism, ultra-nationalism, appeal to the glorious past, and appeal to a common enemy. In this case, immigrants. He tried to overthrow the government in the January 6th Capitol riot. He sent troops into our cities. He cracked down on protest. He intimidated lawmakers. He demanded that lawmakers redraw maps to rig elections in his fa- favor. ICE has been disappearing people. Because of corporate lobbying and campaign contributions, United States politicians serve the interests of big corporations instead of the people.

0:35:44Because no one except Democrats and Republicans win elections, the United States is not a democracy, but rather an authoritarian two-party state. Colorado pays more taxes to the federal government than it gets from the federal government. So, I am proposing that Colorado become an independent nation. If you are interested in supporting Colorado independence, come talk to me after open comment. Thank you. Our next three speakers are Hep Ingham, Laura Kaplan, and Patty Hayward. Thank you. Good evening, Council. All right, the FAA is an agency captured by the industry it regulates. Aviation groups use the FAA to ensure unlimited daily operations immune from local control for the benefit and profit of special interests. This is the real issue. Taking FAA money means no local control of noise, leaded fuel, or flight operations. If the sovereign entity that owns the airport is subject to grant assurances and does try to implement controls, they're threatened by aviation groups with lawsuits using the FAA grant language and by FAA levied fines.

0:37:18The airports that have taken back control from the FAA and the unbridled expansion of flight schools include Santa Monica and Torrance, who are not bound by FAA money, and Reid-Hillview, which is bound by FAA money, which banned leaded fuel despite FAA threats, using local control to put the health of citizens above the narrow interests of general aviation. It's disheartening to hear staff and council members using incorrect information to build the case to take FAA grants. Council should stand up for the majority of citizens. Please do not bend to FAA bullying. Keep the decision on public land in the public's hands. Boulder has a responsibility to do better. Whatever good that comes from general aviation can be accomplished with pilots and planes that respect the community. The FAA control selects for and empowers the elements that care less about the people on the ground.

0:38:20I hope you will see to it that true owners of the airport are the ones responsible for its operations. And if you want to hear the story about how a town and its airport took back control, I'll be interviewing the lead activist at Santa Monica Tuesday at 6:00 on >> is up, but thank you for your testimony. Right, now we go to Lara Kaplan, Patty Hayward, and Chris Coin. Good evening, Council. Laura Kaplan, representing myself only. Finishing half spot, 6:00 p.m. KGNU this Tuesday, John Fairweather. So, good decisions are based on good information. However, your recent study session about the airport was riddled with incomplete and erroneous information. I respectfully submit Council needs a do-over in a public hearing with better information. I'll give you just a couple of examples of the errors I'm talking about. First, you were not given the option of working toward a locally controlled airport.

0:39:35That is an airport that is not obligated by federal grant assurances, and where local government can therefore enact sensible restrictions to protect residents. You were falsely told that this isn't possible. Let me tell you about two airports that prove that prove that it is possible. Torrance Airport last accepted FAA money in 1986. They banned touch-and-go flights and set decibel noise limits for day and night. Violations can result in a ban from the airport. Santa Monica Airport last accepted an FAA grant in 20, excuse me, 2003. Santa Monica also sets noise limits and bans touch-and-goes on weekends, holidays, and overnight. Violations can result in a loss of access and fines up to $10,000. Example number two of incorrect information, you were told that CDOT won't fund Boulder's airport infrastructure unless Boulder signals an intent to operate in perpetuity. This is flat out wrong according to the director of CDOT's division of of aeronautics. I have an email from that person that I will forward to you.

0:40:42Uh they are eager to maintain Boulder's infrastructure um and the only type of grant that requires an indefinite commitment is for the purchase of land. Bottom line, you're barreling toward a drastic irreversible policy decision based on bad information and you need a do-over a do-over. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Now we'll go to Chris Coin and then our last and then uh Peter Fuchs and then E.J. Geroux. Um good evening everyone. My name is Patty Hayward and I too am a resident of the Golden West Manor. Um as a resident of affordable living, I was very surprised by the letter we received that as as of September 1st, 2026, some of our utilities will not be no longer included in our into our lease. Included in this change would be cable, television, and telephone.

0:41:46Seniors will have to look for an outside source to provide them with those amenities. Seniors live on a fixed income. There is no overtime paid, no monthly payments, excuse me, no bonuses paid, and or incentives included in our monthly payments. Somewhere along the line, somebody's going to be missing a dozen eggs, a carton of milk, a loaf of bread, so that they can stay in the convenience of their apartment and have those things that they've been so used to. As of September 1st, I will be looking at $1,300 a month for a studio apartment. That increase will be a $250 increase if they do not stop the change that they're trying to do. So, how can you stop this and how can you help? Thank you. Our last three speakers are Chris Coin, Peter Fuchs, and E.J. Geroux.

0:43:07Good evening to all and thank you for having me. My name's Chris Coin. Myself and my wife, Sophia, own a property over at 1304 A Street up in the University Hill area. We're currently right now trying to build the most energy-efficient home we can within the borders and the code of what Boulder will allow us. Oops. I'm not here tonight to ask you guys to change any type of code. What I'm in here to talk about is time, the city's time and the taxpayers' time. On our side, where we stand from our property right now, you guys passed a law a law on 2024, uh I believe it's called the energy code dealing with net zero, net zero homes. You guys also have a uh BRC chapter 6.6 that deals with trees and protection, and then you have your 2018 uh forestry strategic plan. All good policies, protecting trees and trying to go net zero. We're not talking about bad policies, we're talking good policies.

0:44:14And not all your lots in Boulder fall under them, but a lot of them do. And when they intersect, there could be an issue. And that's where we are right now with our property with our property. So, sorting out this intersection of policies has taken us 22 months, four or five city departments, uh five Boulder Inquire tickets, and one um open records, I believe, file we have. So, what I'm asking is, whenever you have I got to speed it up. Whenever you have a request for properties, can you send the city out with a small team once, point of contact to walk the lot, make sure the lot's good according to the diagram. If it's good if it's good, now you have one team, one point of contact, one memo. Thank you. All right, our last two speakers are Peter Fuchs and E.J. Gerou.

0:45:15Hi, I'm speaking on the topic of the refusal to raise the tip minimum wage. Um I've lived in Boulder year-round since I graduated from college in 2020. Um I'm friends with minimum wage and tip workers, and my first job paid 18 an hour, so I'm familiar with the challenges of living in Boulder. Uh I think there's plenty of common ground on the issue we're discussing, and when I walk down Pearl Street and see empty storefronts, um I think everybody from all classes are disappointed by the news that another restaurant has closed in town. We agree on this. Uh I believe, however, that a refusal to raise the minimum wage in line with the approved study from 2024 is regressive and punitive. It's also a decision that would miss the underlying causes of the problem while unnecessarily harming the workforce our community depends on for the amenities we all enjoy.

0:46:07Um First of all, the assumptions that were made to support a wage freeze are inflated and misrepresent the realities of hourly tipped wage labor. Uh the $72,000 a year claim that's being circulated is unsubstantiated, and even if staff make $36 an hour on the busiest nights, the reality is that they'll make much less on others. At a time when inflation is rampant, a wage freeze represents a reduction in buying power and the increase in likelihood that these workers will leave for greener pastures outside of Boulder. If businesses are unable to find labor, the economic spiral worsens, and I expect to see more Teva signs in storefronts on Pearl Street. To address the genuine concern of rising business costs without punishing the workforce, I propose we instead focus on the underlying issue, rising rents. I'll put my full support behind the Boulder vacancy tax tax.

0:47:01Uh this policy will not harm the workers our community relies on, but will instead create a positive feedback loop. Downward pressure on rents will increase overhead or reduce overhead for businesses, stabilize the local workforce by encouraging tipped workers to remain in Boulder, and foster economic activity at local >> is up, but thank you. Our last speaker is E.J. Giroux. Hi, I'm E.J. I'm also with Golden West um senior center. We are very upset there because we're getting We have leases that we signed that told us that all of our utilities would be paid by the corporation, and now we're being notified that they won't be. We've also been told of after free parking, we now have to pay $50 a month to get a parking spot or decide if we're going to walk a half a block or a mile and a half of to get to the rooms that we live in.

0:48:05We also have problems with our elevators, which sometimes people are stuck with for hours downstairs because the elevators aren't always working like they're supposed to. It's a 14-story building. So, I'm not going to take a lot of your time, but I just think somebody should look into this because we don't seem to be getting any response from any of the management. What are we doing this? All we hear is we're working on it. And that's been 4 years that I've lived there. They've been working on it. So, thank you very much. Thank you. Well, thanks to everyone who came out and spoke to us this evening. Um I'll turn to city staff to see if you have any additional follow-ups. Thanks so much, Mayor. Um uh I will have to phone a friend on this um issue with Golden West as uh I'm not as familiar with it. So, I'll ask our director of Housing and Human Services to come down for a moment.

0:49:06Good evening, Council. Kurt Fernhaber. Uh and I support Housing and Human Services. Um So, I was in a conversation with BHP today. Um and we were speaking about Golden West. What they informed me is that there is a contract with Comcast that's coming to an end um in September. And so, they need to restructure some things. They will be continuing what free Wi-Fi service for all residents, which is uh the same service that they provided other their other properties as well. Um for those residents that are just continuing with Wi-Fi, I think their rents are reducing by $40 or $45 per month. However, I think the concern the residents have, those who want to uh get their own cable or phone service that could cost more than the $45 dollar reduction that they expect to receive.

0:50:02Um so BHP is working on this. I believe they have a community meeting coming up and they have put out a a communication on this which answers many of these questions that residents have had. Um so that's the the update I have from from BHP. Any other further questions we would want to uh direct have have directed to BHP directly. Thanks. And Kurt to clarify, BHP is Boulder Housing Partners who are the housing authority for the City of Boulder who own the property. Correct? Yes, so Boulder Housing Partners purchased um Golden West uh just over a year ago and they've been making a number of upgrades um to the property. Thanks. I I would say I think we would appreciate hearing more information when you have a chance. Thank you for that. Um Did you have anything else that you wanted to follow up on? I do. Okay, so so let's go back to Neria and then we'll we'll come back to council questions.

0:51:08Uh just quickly um I will say to Mr. Coin, thank you. We always take recommendations and improvements that we can do and how we do our services. I will say and I know that teammates in both planning and development services have been in contact with you. They've been working on protecting trees including how to support them through demolition and construction. We will continue to do that and make sure we balance those needs and preserving our tree canopy but always appreciate feedback as we as we do our work. Um I will say on we've heard many comments about the airport and and council will be um revisit talking again about the airport soon. I just wanted to sort of um clarify from staff's perspectives. Our current concern about the airport has really focused on funding um and funding decisions can vary depending on what the future land use is and what we do in short term. And so we have been thoughtful about thinking about that. I do not believe that we said CDOT will not give us any funds. I I think if there was lack of clarity and I'll go back and look at the tape. I think it was that there are limitations and we had received some signals that perhaps the amount of funds would be

0:52:30harder. They have funds in the in the vein of three and five years which we have taken with unleaded fuel for example. They also have um funding that goes into 20 years and that would surpass our current grant assurance. So we'll be thinking about that as that moves forward. Um I want to say too that in the meantime I understand um folks who bring concerns about noise and uh our possibilities we continue to explore unleaded fuel. We will continue to do that um as we have an airport um but as it functions as an airport FAA will always have some presence uh and some control cuz they control the airspace, right? We will we have certainly other controls that we will have at our disposal but the conversation one is a little more nuanced and I will just say that staff very much uh tries to bring um the information that they know for the conversation that we're about to have um to the fore.

0:53:31Thanks. Questions for city staff about open comment? Nicole and Okay. Nicole and then Tara. Um yeah, my question probably Kurt, you're going to be the one to answer it. Um this is just around the the Golden West. I know this is just such a um the cost of cable and all of that is just skyrocketing. I was just visiting my mom. It was $250 as well for terrible cable service and and phone service. And um one of the things I'm just wondering about is is there any support for people in um getting to more streaming technology or or things like that that are far cheaper and that are compatible with the free Wi-Fi that's provided so that people don't have to lose access to um the stations that they're used to watching the programs, things like that. Um strikes me we've got lots of helpful high school students and and college students and others around, I think um who certainly can teach me a thing or two. Um but I'm just I'm wondering if that's anything that we're working or BHP might be working toward.

0:54:27Yeah, thank you for that question. What I what I did notice in the information today from Boulder Housing Partners is that they as they get closer to that uh time frame of the change, they will have staff on site um to help individuals with um advising or signing up for um um other uh service providers. And sort of pointing them in that in those directions. And I I think one one of the things I'm wondering about is just that um the support, right? For making that transition and then ongoing um just to help people out. I think this this has been at least my struggle in trying to save my mom a couple hundred dollars a month um is just that without, you know, being there it it is really hard, right? This is all new to to many of us as well. And so um just making that transition, I I'm just wondering if there's any support options available there for people to to rely.

0:55:19>> Yeah, that's as I was uh struggling with T-Mobile last night and my uh young daughter had helped me, I understand. Um but um I I believe that that's BHP's uh intention to provide as much support as they can. Yes. So Kurt, so what you're saying is is that Golden West used to pay for cable and now they're not and now the new Golden West is not going to pay for cable. >> Yes, the previous contract had it all bundled together for all of the residents. But you reduced the rent but not enough to offset the increase in the cable. Yeah, so the the rent is reduced. However, with that reduced rent you get Wi-Fi but not the phone or cable service. All right, that's all the questions that I see. Uh we do have the opportunity for up to 30 seconds of council response to open comment if any council members would like to do so.

0:56:14Mark. And just very quickly, um BHP is providing resources for all of the tenants to help work them through the alternatives that are available to them. Obviously, the the reduction in rent the $46 is probably not going to be satisfactory um to get full services, but they will work with every tenant um to get them the best deal possible. And you know, this was not a cost-cutting measure. This was simply a contract expiration. Thank And you're the uh council representative to the BHP board, which is why you're sharing that information with us, I believe. >> why I'm sharing it. Okay, thanks for that. Uh not seeing any other hands. No. You're too far away, Tina. I can't see you. We're at comments. Yeah, go ahead. Uh Well said. Any other brief responses? Tasha, did you have something? Uh is that going to be translated before I ask?

0:57:34To be fair, I can >> make an attempt if you don't want to do it because I wasn't particularly thinking about in that direction, but it was appreciating for the residents of San Lorenzo for coming and sharing. You are very important to our community and we will look forward to supporting you. I'm sure I've missed something in there, but Okay, Tasha, did you make a want to make a brief response? Yes, I would like to. Thank you. Um thank you for the residents of San Lorenzo for coming. Again, I appreciate the my fellow council members' efforts to gather additional information and our city staff to figure out what we can do. Um I was especially compelled by the 100 students that are BVSD um as well as the many residents who work in the city of Boulder. So thank you for that. I also wanted to acknowledge that on May 18th, 2026, there was a shooting at an Islamic Center in San Diego, the largest mosque in San Diego, um that that resulted in in three deaths. And as we are approaching June 1st and the horrific terrorist attack that happened here for Jewish community members, um just remembering and honoring that we are one species on one planet.

0:58:49Um and I'm hopeful that we can all act like it. Thank you so much. All right, thanks. And not seeing any other hands, um that's the end of open comment. Thanks again to everyone who came out to speak and to listen. Uh we look forward to following up on several of these matters and I will call us into a brief recess and we'll come back for the business portion of our meeting at 6:30. Thanks. >> All right. Hello again, everybody. It's 6:30 p.m. We're back from our brief recess, so I'll call us back to order. And Alicia, can we move to our consent agenda, please? Yes, sir. Thank you. Our consent agenda is our third item on the agenda and tonight, and it consists of items 3A and 3B. Any questions or comments on the consent agenda?

3A Consideration of a motion to convert the June 4, 2026 Regular City Council Meeting to a Special Meeting to hold the Boulder Valley Comprehensive Plan Adoption – joint public hearing with Planning Board

1:06:05Mark? Just quickly, I'm going to vote no for the same reason I voted no last time. I'm unhappy with the way we changed the height limitations. I thought it was sloppy drafting, imprecise drafting, and so I'm going to vote no on that. Can you clarify which item you're speaking about? I'm I'm very good. I'm talking about the item B and the ordinance amending title seven and that portion of that ordinance that changes some of the height limitations. Thank you for that. Okay. Any other questions or comments or perhaps a motion? I move the consent agenda. Second. We've got a motion and a second. Can we have a roll call, please? Yes, sir. Thank you. We'll start the roll call for the consent agenda items 3A and 3B with Councilmember Kaplan. Yes. Marquez? Yes. Schuhart? Yes.

1:07:02Speer? Yes. Wallach? Yes, but no on B. Thank you, sir. Mayor Pro Tem Weinert? Yes. Council Member Adams? Yes. Benjamin? Yes. And Mayor Brockett? Yes. The consent agenda items are hereby approved unanimously with the noted nay from Council Member Wallach on item 3B. Thanks very much. Can we go to our call up check-ins, please? Yes, sir. Thank you. Our call up check-ins are our fourth the agenda tonight. 4A is the consideration of a site review for the redevelopment of 777 Broadway with new residential uses. The project includes the demolition of an existing residential building for 63 units including one, two, three, and four-bedroom units totaling 81,647 square feet. This is reviewed under case number LUR 2025-00014. Thank you. Any questions or comments or desire to call this one up? Seeing no hands raised, that'll be a no on calling that one up. Can we go to the next one, please?

4A Consideration of a Site Review for the redevelopment of 777 Broadway with new residential uses. The project includes the demolition of an existing residential building for 63 units including one-, two-, three-, and four- bedroom units totaling 81,647 square feet. Reviewed under case no. LUR2025-00014

1:08:17Yes, sir. Item 4B is the consideration of a motion by the Landmarks Board to not approve an application to designate the property at 990 Arapahoe Avenue as an individual landmark under chapter 9-11 Historic Preservation BRC 1981. Questions, comments, or desire to call this one up? Matt? I was hoping I could comment after we decide so that we I can my comment doesn't have an impact on quasi-judicial. That's fine, but you don't desire to call it up. >> I do not. Okay. Anybody else? All right. Seeing no hands raised, then we will not call that one up. And so, Matt, if you'd like to comment, go ahead. Yeah, I'd like to call this up. Um or not call this up. Comment, sorry. We already did that. Good job. Um I'd like to comment on Um, this probably needed to be said earlier, but because we were in a position of quasi-judicial, it would be inappropriate, but this project has brought forth a many challenge and problems with our landmark landmarking process. And so, I think it's important that we sort of flag this and maybe at next year's retreat look at reforming our landmarking process. This isn't to say that landmarking's not important. It really is in our community, but when we have a process that doesn't take into account our

1:09:30community context like senior affordable housing, and that is not a value we can apply to whether or not a little bungalow gets preserved and prevents a community need, I think we're missing something in our community. Not to mention the displacement of residents when they have to demo and leave people out of residence for one or multiple years before even a shovel of dirt is dug. We have some problems here that I think we need to reconcile. I think we can actually make uh, landmarking stronger and more trustworthy in our community without these problems that maybe make it seem like it's being weaponized or used to harm or restrict positive change in our community. So, that's something I look forward to us perhaps doing, but I want to flag it and maybe at next year's retreat we can tackle it.

1:10:14Got it. Thanks. All right, that finishes our call-up check-in. So, can we go to our public hearing, please? Yes, sir. >> >> Our public hearings are our fifth item on tonight's agenda. 5A is the second reading and consideration of a motion to adopt ordinance 8750, adjustment to base one base budget one, appropriating money to defray expenses and liabilities of the City of Boulder for the 2026 fiscal year and setting forth related details. Thank you, Alicia. And uh, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem and council members, tonight we're talking about our adjustment to base, something we do on a regular basis uh, here in the city. Uh, this first one does a lot of reconciling efforts, but without I'll keep my mouth shut and send it over to our CFO, Christa Morrison, to kick it off. Well, good evening, Mayor Brockett, members of City Council. Christa Morrison, Chief Financial Officer.

5A Second reading and consideration of a motion to adopt Ordinance 8750, Adjustment to Base Budget 1 appropriating money to defray expenses and liabilities of the City of Boulder for the 2026 fiscal year; and setting forth related details Staff Time: 10 Min Council Time: 20 Min

1:11:12Tonight, staff will provide brief presentation on the first adjustment to base to the current fiscal year. There are two adjustments to base considered by council each fiscal year, with the first in May or June, so that's the one you'll consider tonight, and the second in November or December. After the budget is adjusted, normal business activity requires adjustment to the past budget. Examples of adjustment to the base budget include additional revenue received, such as grants, that were not anticipated in the original budget when it was passed, as well as adjustments needed for funds for projects that carry over between multiple years, so we need to re-appropriate those. And also unanticipated costs that may come up in a year, such as a contract bidding above what we planned for. As you heard in last week's financial forecast presentation, recommendations for adjustments to base will be limited to only those necessary given our financial constraints. I'll turn this over to Stacy Palikova to walk through in more detail the recommended adjustments to base. Thank you.

1:12:29Hello everyone, Stacy Palikova, Senior Budget Analyst with Finance. So, this chart shows the city's annual budget cycle, which aligns with the fiscal year, and as indicated by the two red pins, each year at least two supplemental budget appropriation ordinances, ordinances, known as adjustment to base budget, or ATB, are presented to City Council for review and approval. Supplemental appropriations brought forward to council consider critical criticality of items such as mid-year emergencies or funds received mid-year such as grants and donations. Staff carefully reviews supplemental appropriations prior to bringing forward for council approval, which comes forward as Krista said, at least twice a year with the first budget adjustment in May and the second final budget adjustment in December as shown on this chart. Adjustments to base are necessary and standard practice, generally presented as one-time budget amendments that support unplanned investments, voter approved changes, emerging community needs, and mid-year grants or donations received.

1:13:34They are classified into three funding source categories, including fund balance, additional unbudgeted revenue, and grant revenue. Fund balance represents unbudgeted anticipated expenditures supported through fund balance. Additional unbudgeted revenue, uh, are anticipated expenditures supported by additional revenue coming in above budgeted amounts for the current fiscal year, such as reimbursements or donations. And grant revenue supports unbudgeted anticipated expenditures using revenue received from grants. In this ATB1, staff is recommending a total of 18.6 million in budget adjustments, including 13.1 million from fund balance, 5.3 from mid-year grants received, and 129,000 from additional unbudgeted revenue, including revenue from donations, interlocal agreements, and additional revenue above forecasted amounts that were not captured in the original budget. It is important to note that of the 13.1 million fund balance draw amount, a vast majority are funds that are dedicated to a restricted purpose.

1:14:40One example is appropriation of fund balance donations from previous years to the family resource schools program or the junior rangers programs. Other fund balance usage includes previously appropriated affordable housing project dollars with remaining expense expenses spanning into this fiscal year. Advancing radio replacement funds that were specifically set aside for that purpose and money from the water utilities funds for specific projects. 803,000 is being requested from general fund fund balance, all of which are dedicated funds restricted to a specific purpose. A full list can be seen in attachment B of the item 5A packet. As standard practice, staff continue to monitor our major revenue sources to understand any changes forecasted against the original budget and will continue to bring forward updates to council through budget discussions. At this time, staff is careful to not recommend substantial draws from fund balances from funds supported by sales and use taxes apart from the planned expenditures of funds I just mentioned.

1:15:42We are limiting ATB1 requests due to flattening revenue to project specific purposes with dedicated funds, new grants, or new revenue. Staff is not recommend recommending expanded programs at this time. With this, I'll pass along to Bridget Clack who will review a summary of the ATB1 highlights. Good evening everyone. Bridget Clack. Um on these next slides we've highlighted items included on this adjustment to base from fund balance. These items reflect appropriation of unspent funds set aside for specific use from the last fiscal year that we're bringing forward into the fiscal year currently. >> >> Business incentive Sorry, business incentive support for um 754,000 is one of the items coming forward from fund balance. Then we also have another item with which is our energy impact offset fees. This is utilizing uh funds from fund balance from energy offsets on behalf of participating at marijuana cultivators and rental license holders.

1:16:55And these 2026 funds will be used to support the energy efficiency retrofits. Um continue with a couple other fund items uh using fund balance. We have the public safety and wildfire um item appropriation from wildfire resilient savings in the climate tax fund. That is going to be funding wildfire back country wheeled litter for patient extraction. Also, we have a wildfire assistance program. This is appropriation for community grants for wildfire mitigation. Funds are awarded at the time of the application approval and paid out completion when the work is completed and requiring budget to be reappropriated in the current year. All right, we have the affordable housing fund. It's a project carryover for 4 million. These project expenditures in the affordable housing fund for Rally Flats on 34th Street and Spine Road development based on delays in the original project development timeline.

1:18:04Uh second item on the list is uh 7.3 million for radio funding. So, these are requests for funding set aside um in the equipment replacement fund uh in its fund balance for uh radio replacements once they have reached their um end of life, which typically runs about a 10-year life cycle. This funding is specifically to replace the public safety um departments their radios. All right, and we're going to be moving to the uh select mid-year grants items that are going that are being brought forward uh on this ATB. So, staff have continued to seek out and receive grants to support city services, and we've highlighted a few of those grants here. We have the mobile home repair and replacement grant. Um these were uh the city was awarded grant funding from DOLA primarily for the purpose of beginning a pilot to provide mobile home replacement loans to households at or below 100% AMI.

1:19:11A portion of the funding will go towards rehabilitation loans for single-family owner-occupied dwellings. That second item on the list is the uh History of Colorado grant for the cultural resource management plan. The OSMP system comprises of 46,000 acres um within the surrounding area of the city of Boulder encompassing approximately 1,300 known cultural resources of indigenous and Euro-American origin associated with the historical development of the Boulder area. And so, these cultural funds will be uh go towards developing out that process further. The third item is the Bison Costler Forest Thinning Project Grant. So, the city of Boulder was awarded these grant funds as part of the State Forest Restoration and Wildfire Risk Mitigation Grant. The grant was awarded to complete forest health and fire mitigation on OSMP lands um mainly in that Flagstaff corridor. All right. Um last slide for uh the section of the mid-year grants that are on this ATB.

1:20:26So, the Clean Transit Enterprise Fund Grant and the Faster Funding. Uh so, the Clean Transit enterprise funds together with funding advancements for surface transportation and economic recovery act of 2009 funds support the purchase of a 35-ft electric bus that will be added to the hot fleet. I'm going to pass it back to Stacy for the council action portion of this presentation. So, now we'll see if council has any questions. Thanks so much for that presentation and welcome to the council meeting this evening. Any questions for city staff? Mark? Thank you for the presentation and welcome aboard. Um just a couple of questions. Um the Are the are the radios for various departments not compatible with one another unless they're all purchased at one time? I'm sorry. >> Can you repeat? Yeah, if I can repeat that last part. I mean, do you have the option of purchasing new radios for the fire department and open space but not the police? Do they not talk to one another?

1:21:42Does it have to happen all at once? I think Charlotte's going to get that one. Good evening, council members. Charlotte Hussey, budget officer for the city. Uh we are bringing forward the uh item for the uh facilities and fleet is bringing forward the item for the radio replacement. Um that is a combination, as you've noted, across all of the departments. Um we typically, when we look to purchase uh replacements such as this, look to see if we have ability to consolidate and perform discounts. We did have the ability to advance this purchase a year early with a discount by performing uh the replacement purchase for all of the departments. so that is what is included in this ATB. And when we we make I mean this is a substantial purchase. When we do that, I mean do we pay cash or do we pay over time? I mean do we get terms?

1:22:48Uh so the this item specifically was an item that was planned for. We have an internal service fund that we have been setting aside annually to replace these radios. Uh we anticipated the replacement of the radios in 2027. We're advancing this replacement with uh funds that we've set aside specifically on an annual basis, so it is current revenue, but we've been setting aside funds for this uh for several years to be able to make this purchase uh early and at a discount. Okay. Um one of the question um the largest portion of the ATB is from fund balance. And if you look back over the last 4 years, there have been some pretty significant numbers coming from fund balance. Do I understand that that's money that has been budgeted but not spent from other departments?

1:23:42So thank you for the question, Council Member. The majority of the fund balance uh if we look at the uh example for radio replacements, that makes up 56% of the fund balance that we're bringing to you tonight. That is fund balance that we set aside for a specific purpose and has built up over time. We are bringing forward this because we recognized and have planned for this purchase um and are just bringing forward this 1 year early. Um so that is drawing from fund balance, but we intentionally planned for that um for multiple years to bring forward to City Council for the replacement purchase of um of that item. But it's not just unspent funds. Correct. Okay, because I I've going back and looking at the $36 million and $31 million in '23 and '24, I'm wondering you know, how did we accumulate such large numbers in the fund balance? I would assume most departments are spending what has been allocated to them.

1:24:43Correct. Yeah. Um that's correct. Okay. That's all I got. Okay, that I was going to call a quick, but I got next anyway, so I can just ask my question. I want to follow up on what Mark was talking about with regards to radios. As it was very clear, we understand the need, but we also understand the financial constraints that we're in. So, tying it off to Nury's point there. We are in a tough space. You guys know that better than we are. And we're looking at perhaps new revenue streams this year's budget and perhaps next year's budget that could soften the landing. And so, I'm wondering why we're looking to spend that now when that money could be redirected to minimize harm on certain other cuts versus be redirected towards programs and things that we know have high impact. And so, it just seems odd that we're choosing that now versus waiting for new revenue streams that perhaps could offset that cost if we deferred it for a period of time.

1:25:42I'll I'll take a first stab at answering that and staff can totally disavow me if I'm wrong. But I I will say a couple things. One is following up on Councilmember Wesson's point. We did actually there was a period where our communications our radios did not speak to each other very well. We have invested in making sure that across our public safety departments they are now harmonious. We went to a single provider a while ago or recently I guess a year or so ago. With this purchase as this moves forward, public safety remains for us a critical expenditure. While there are life cycles to a variety of products, it is different to say a life cycle of a computer, for example, is something that we could push off, or other items that we have the ability to push off into other timetables, versus the keeping up with the immediate and technological changes that we are requiring, particularly for public safety. It is an area where we do not usually take more risk than we need to.

1:26:54That's satisfactory, cuz I was going to suggest we go back to Morse code or telegraph, but you convinced me, so I appreciate that. Look forward to hearing your next question in Morse code. Matt. All right. Yes, Tina. Just out of curiosity, we had a fairly dry year and didn't have a lot of snow removal complaints. Did we realize any savings in that area, or is that and does it just roll over? Um I'm sorry. I'm for good. Thank you for the question, council member. It's something that we will need to look at the specifics to get back regarding potential savings for the snow removal program. But, it is something that we work with, as you all know, with departments across the board on an annual basis in reviewing the savings and planning for requests that are coming for mid-year, looking at our financial position, and then planning for the upcoming fiscal year as well during budget development.

1:28:06And uh Charlotte, too, as we get back to council members, I presume that we we look at, while they may not have been removing snow, were they doing street sweeping? Right? The seasonal nature and the variable nature of our teams means they're not sitting there, right, waiting for snow to come as perhaps we've heard a little bit in community, but rather that they do they turn to other work um and and looking to see what what is offset by that. Okay, seeing no other hands raised, let's go to the public hearing. We have three people signed up to speak. Each person will get 3 minutes and people will be required to speak to the adjustment to base in front of us. And our three speakers are Lynn Seagull virtually, Rob Smoking person, and Laura Gonzalez virtually. So, let's start with Lynn.

1:28:56Oh, Lynn is in person. Lynn, go ahead. >> >> It's on base should be met by defunding from Israel. Done. Okay, thank you. Now, we'll go to Rob Smoke. My name is Rob Smoke and I I live in Boulder and I've lived here since '86. And in talking about the budget, you mentioned public safety, very important topic. And things that are funded under um ATB and so forth. Um my my observation is that based on you know, critical observations that I know have been made to council by members of the community other than myself, there are imprudent expenditures being made if there are cuts in those areas. A lot of areas like public safety, which you were just all talking about, uh would be a lot easier. Um uh anybody can follow along by going to um Google AI's program, to Gemini.

1:30:07And uh if you look up Santa Monica, Santa Monica has a population very similar to Boulder. The median household income is slightly higher. It's about 12% higher than it is for Boulder. And they spend half as much money on public relations and communications with the public that Boulder spends. Um if you ask um Google AI Gemini, um what's the average number of people working on staff in the public relations department of a city 100,000 to 500,000 in size, Google will come back with between five and seven. Boulder has 18 who are paid $100,000 or more who work in public relations/communications, public engagement. And uh the budget right now was reduced slightly for public relations in the coming year. I think it's it's gone down from being slightly over 4 million to being just slightly under 4 million.

1:31:19But those numbers represent an increase of more than 100% over the past several years. I think going back five years. So um I also asked Google AI to tell me what's the necessary budget amount to communicate with the public about all the key issues, which would be uh safety issues, things like fire, things like uh you know, if we had drought conditions and so forth. All the things that we do communicate with How much money would it take to do that effectively? And Google Gemini, now they may be biased for one reason or another, but they said 600,000. And Boulder's spending around 4 million, and we may not be including, you know, certain areas, certain people working certain departments. So, you know, with the average number of workers being uh over 100 grand being uh triple what it is, and all the other factors, I think some better Your Your time is up, but thanks for your testimony.

1:32:25Rising Leader And our um quiet in the audience, please. And our last speaker is Laura Gonzales on line. Mayor, I do not see Laura on line tonight. In that case, we'll close the public hearing. Bring it back to council for discussion. I'm going to kick it off with just a clarifying question, Area. Would you mind just speaking a little bit to the uh communications and public relations budget? Uh sure, and and it's a it's an unfortunate conversation that I think we've been having in community cuz it's also pitting uh departments against each other. It came up last year uh as we were talking about um our negotiations with police. It has come up this year, and then now other departments are coming in. I will say the city does have 32 communications and engagement professionals. 18 of those are embedded in departments, and the reason you see that number, and and it's hard to compare to other cities, is because we've actually decided to go into more centralized model. Our most departments, as we've looked at other jurisdictions, actually have very similar numbers, but their numbers are spread out, and so you don't see them.

1:33:30Uh PD, for example, has two PIOs. Those are not PD staff. Those are actually communications and engagement staff. There's a position recently that was a vacant position, not a new add, uh that we moved forward um for utilities. They had been supported by three partially funded individuals, decided that was not the right approach for them. They needed something more, and asked uh to change that model. Uh we used one of those vacant positions and uh, dedicated it, embedded that person into utilities and that now actually liberates general fund because that is now fully paid for by um, utilities uh, and and their dedicated funding. We have a variety of staff who are doing the amazing work that people are benefiting from right now. There are people that are in charge of um, the video, the taping, paying attention to Zoom. They do that not just for these council meetings, but they also do that for each and every one of the board and commission meetings. Those are particular skills and expertise and folks that are doing that work.

1:34:33We have folks that are uh, supporting our um, engagement strategies. Um, and those are in many, I will say many jurisdictions, that's a department unto itself. We decided not to do that. Those are folks that are uh, helping to engage. They usually lead some of the more complex um, projects, but they also help train the trainer and help support uh, departments when the project aren't as big. We have folks that do, as you saw today, help with our language access program and making sure that all in our community are able to understand what we're doing. There is a big contingent of folks, but it's because they are spread out and do so much and I dare say that if we did not have community engagement in our midst, we would also hear from community that we do not do enough community engagement either. So, it's an unfortunate narrative that is out there. I really stand by and support the folks that we're doing. That does not mean that we do not look, particularly in constrained times, where we can do better. Last year, we actually had a hiring freeze uh, as we were looking to positions, we ended up um, reducing uh, I want to say off the top of my head and don't um, hold me to to

1:35:48that truth, but around 15 positions um, that uh, we did not move forward in this year's for this year's budget. We will again be doing those reductions as we look to how do we move forward. So, we were always mindful of what programs we have, where we can reduce. We will continue to do so, but I don't think targeting one department as not being useful to community is the approach to go. Appreciate that, Mayor. Yes, sir. Mayor Yes, ma'am. Can I just follow up with you on that area? So, in my role on the Colorado Municipal League's policy committee, we spend a lot of time with other communities throughout Colorado. I've had the privilege of serving on that for a number of years, really my entire time on council. And other communities absolutely gasp and roll their eyes when they hear the amount of engagement we do because they don't do but a fraction of that. And so, really this is a question about community desires. If community wants less engagement staff, they should demand less engagement.

1:36:56It's really that simple. Now, if we want high engagement, then you get high engagement staff. I mean, it's really a simple feedback mechanism. So, I think really community has to look inward on this one and we feed and we respond to that. We settle up, we send things back for engagement all the time because we're responding to community's desire for more engagement on many issues. That demands more staff. So, so this is a feedback that I think community needs to question their own values on and whether or not they truly value engagement and outreach. If they do, then we're doing the right thing. If not, then let's have a conversation. Thanks. Quiet Quiet in the audience, please. Quiet in the audience. Quiet in the audience. Quiet. All right. Um So, we're back to the adjustment to base.

1:37:43Any comments on that? Yeah, Nicole. Just wanted to thank staff, as always, for all the work you do. It is always very inspiring to see all the grants and the other sources of support. I feel like you all are amazing in seeking out funding to help supplement a lot of the services we need now. So, just wanted to say thank you again for for all this work. I know it's routine. You're in the middle of all the other budget work, fund our future, all these other things, and you're still doing this and doing a great job. So, just thank you for this. Agree with that statement. Ryan. I just wanted to thank the finance team for a stand-up job with this with this adjustment. Thank you. And also to endorse city manager Arias' comments about communication and engagement. And I think um it it's fundamental to the job of a local government to have good processes to engage with two-way, multi-way communication with residents.

1:38:40I don't think it needs much more to be said than that. So, I appreciate the work of all those working in that space, and appreciate it. Very good. Um yes, Tisha. Um I concur with my colleagues' comments. I also just want to honor um especially the comment around community engagement. And I would be remiss if I didn't lift up that I'm seeing a disproportionate use of community engagement. I think a perfect example is our upcoming conversations around um tipped credit offset and the fact that we're only allowing 3 to 4 weeks versus a Boulder Valley Comp Plan or some of the other um core considerations that we have that are significantly more robust. So, again, you know, I'm definitely an advocate of strong community engagement, but it makes it easier for our community to to um to launch criticisms against this critical component and and necessary component of our community and um and the um city council and and city manager's office. Um but I am noticing um uh um an uneven use um of community engagement and therefore um really making sure that we are um transparent and um managing expectations around the level of community engagement. I also appreciate the more centralized version uh um or rather not version but model that is being used. Um and again, when

1:40:14we get to budgeting for outcomes, which will happen in a couple of months, it will be we will be looking to see what are the outcomes um that have been gained from the community engagement as well as any other program on the budget. Thank you. All right. I see uh thanks to see Rob. Yeah, thank you. And thank you, staff, for the presentation. Um just kind of following up on Mark's question and um Taisha as well, budgeting for outcomes. If we can save some money by purchasing these radios, I think that's great. Um I would also hope that we get these radios so they're implemented by uh Sundance. That would be fantastic and support our fire and safety. Thank you so much. Okay, thank you. I don't see any other hands raised, but perhaps a motion.

1:41:05I believe you have suggested most motion language. I'll do it. Go ahead. I want to make a motion to adopt ordinance 8750 adjustment to base budget one appropriating money to defray expenses and liabilities of the city of Boulder for the 2026 fiscal year and setting forth related details. Second. Got a motion and a second. Did you want to speak to your motion at all? >> Sure, I'll speak to it. I know often community members are saying, "Why is our budget so high? Honestly, it's very similar to other cities. For instance, Longmont is 520 520.24 million. And what do I hear for Santa Monica is 796.6 million, according to AI. Gemini. Which AI? Some AI. Did you want to speak to your second? Okay. We've got a motion to second. Do we uh can we have a roll call, please?

1:42:11Yes, sir. Thank you. We'll start the roll call for the adoption of ordinance 8750 with Councilmember Marquez. Yes. Schuhard. Yes. Speer. Yes. Wallach. Aye. Adams. Yes. Benjamin. Yes. Mayor Brockett. Yes. And Councilmember Kaplan. Yes. I think I forgot to say yes. My apologies. Of course. Mayor Pro Tem Wiener. Yes. Thank you. And Councilmember Kaplan. Yes. Thank you all. Ordinance 8750 is hereby adopted unanimously. Great. Well, thanks so much to city staff for all of your hard work on this. Appreciate all of your financial acumen that you apply today and every day on behalf of the city. So, thanks again and have a good night. But it's not yet time for the rest of us to have a good night because we have another agenda item. Maybe it'll still be good. So, uh at least if we can go to our last item, please.

1:43:24Thank you, sir. And again, my apologies Mayor Pro Mayor Pro Tem. Our next item on tonight's agenda is item number eight, our matters from the mayor and members of council. Items 8A is the discussion to establish clear criteria for straw polls during a study session and re-litigation. Thanks. And this is under matters from mayor members of council as originally requested by Mayor Pro Tem Weiner, but I'm actually going to turn to City Attorney Teresa Taylor Tate to start by framing the discussion with some overall information, if you wouldn't mind, please. Thanks, Mayor. Members of council. Um I pre- pre-prepared a short presentation for you this evening to kind of ground the conversation in what rules you currently have, what the current state of the law is, and um looking uh at study sessions, straw polls, and reconsideration.

8A Discussion to establish clearer criteria for straw polls during a Study Session and 'relitigation’

1:44:22Next slide, please. So, to start, official council action is only taken during regular or special meetings. And that comes from our charter, from the legislative procedure. My apologies. I'm having an issue with view. Just one moment. If we can have a quiet in the audience, please. Yeah, could you itemize it, please? There we go. Thank you. 90 minutes, it doesn't itemize. Quiet, please, in the audience. We're not having conversation with folks in attendance. So, charter charter section 16 provides that the council shall act only by ordinance, resolution, or motion. An ordinance, resolution, or motion can only occur during a regular meeting or a special meeting. Section 9 tells us that the council shall meet at such times as may be prescribed by ordinance or resolution and shall meet in regular session at least once in every calendar month.

1:45:43Um you'll see these are excerpts. These are the relevant part portions. Uh it does go on to say that council is authorized to hold special meetings as well. And then the code tells us that council shall hold two regular meetings in each calendar month for each year. It of course then goes on to provide an exception for the summer months. But the point being official action is only taken by motion, resolution, or ordinance during a regular or a special meeting. Next slide, please. In contrast, study sessions are to provide direction for future action items at a regular council meeting or a special council meeting if that's the will of council. And they're intended to present topics that require further direction from council. Study sessions are governed exclusively by council procedure. They are not enshrined in the charter or the code otherwise.

1:46:46And study sessions provide direction to staff. Um and that direction to staff is an intent to explore further and bring something back for official action if an action is to be taken. There's no voting in study sessions. So the only place that actually really governs study sessions is council procedure X subsection C, which speaks to study sessions. And the relevant portion of that for this conversation is that council will give direction to staff at study sessions for the presentation of action items at future regular council meetings. Full summaries of study sessions shall be placed in a later council agenda for approval including the direction given and any remaining issues and any staff reaction or proposed work plan in response to the study session. So, study sessions are for direction for future action items. Next slide, please.

1:47:56>> >> One of the topics we're going to discuss or you all are going to discuss tonight is straw polls and I wanted to start by saying um straw polls are not um outlined anywhere in your procedure. It does not allow or disallow them. But, it has been utilized as a tool and the use of straw polls is an acceptable way to indicate whether council has arrived at consensus for the purpose of providing direction to staff and that's really what staff is looking for as a consensus among council members, enough interest that we should pursue a particular path and bring that forward for future action. But, I want to be very clear that a position expressed in a study session is not binding. You do not have to vote that way. The only binding action you take is in a vote in a regular or a special meeting.

1:48:54And council members can express an interest in exploring a path that they do not ultimately select. And once again, just to be really clear, what we're looking for is consensus. And so, the straw polls have been utilized as a tool to indicate whether there is consensus in an efficient manner. Which is commonly referred to as relitigation, but that's not how it's spelled out in your procedure. It's actually called reconsideration. And there are rules for reconsideration of a motion under Robert's Rules. Um but you all have augmented those rules here. So I want to be clear about reconsideration. And what we should be thinking about primarily is the purpose of this rule. And the purpose of the rule is to provide consistency and certainty in decisions. So direction helps create a path and a a clear path forward.

1:50:05Your rules provide if a council member wishes to reconsider a prior council decision, the council member shall request that the CAC schedule a discussion under item eight, which is this item, matters for mayor and city council. Prior council decisions decisions shall be reconsidered only after a material change in law or fact. And then the rule goes on to explain what that means. And so here the pertinent question is is council direction a decision? A decision such that um prior decisions shall be reconsidered only if So we turn to the definition of decision, which is in our rules of statutory construction contained in our code. We look first to the plain meaning of a word. And a decision is a determination arrived at after consideration. So keeping in mind that purpose to create consistency and certainty in decisions, staff relies on that direction to go forward and prepare an item for action for future council meetings.

1:51:17Revisiting direction um that has already been provided creates confusion for the community and staff. But remember the decision to vote for or against a motion, resolution, or ordinance is independent from the decision to provide direction to explore. That concludes what I have for you as sort of the framework or grounding of this, but I'm available to answer questions and to aid in the discussion in any way I'm able. Thanks so much for that, Teresa. It's very helpful. So, here's what I'll suggest for um our consideration of this item is that to start with any clarifying questions for Teresa, city staff. And then we can have a discussion about this topic and what I would say is uh the question is whether we want to establish different criteria for straw polls. So, basically I would look to council if you want to give direction to the presiding officer, which these days is usually me, to conduct straw polls differently than they have been in the past. So, let's hear from get clarifying questions, we can have a discussion, and then see if we want to um give direction to ourselves and the presiding officer to do things any differently.

1:52:34I've got Rob and Tara and Tina. Tara, Tina, and Ryan, and Mark. But we'll start with Rob. >> >> Thank you. And thank you for that, uh Teresa. My question is why did we need to provide consensus or non-consensus to staff in the study session of a topic of this magnitude? Um and should we have waited for a regular or a special session? Um I know you want clarity for staff, but this didn't seem to provide clarity for the public, and in fact it was a lot of confusion and discontent. Yeah, thank you for the question Rob. I Go ahead Aaron. I'm >> Can I ask Rob, can you clarify what decision that you're speaking about? Oh, whether we supported taking the FAA grants or not. Okay. Well, go ahead. Yeah, so thanks for the thanks for the question.

1:53:29Um a couple of thoughts here. Uh the the question presented during a study session to council was what the future land use of the airport would be. Um inherent in that conversation is funding and how funding occurs. Uh what I would say is that this conversation is separate and distinct from you all discussing that airport um discussion and I believe that that is coming in a future council agenda and so um that would be the appropriate time to address that. Yeah, cuz I think tonight we're just talking about how we conduct study sessions and straw polls and I think just next week we're going to talk about the next steps in term from a process perspective of um airport questions. But Rob, is that satisfactory for now? Yeah, I was just trying to get context around that particular study session for myself.

1:54:32Sure and I I guess what I would add is that staff together with CAC brings forward items for regular meetings, special meetings and study sessions. And so staff together with the CAC brought that forward as a study session. Um I think that there is some hindsight and perhaps lessons learned about whether that was the best placement for that topic or not. Um but that's how we arrived at the decision to bring it as a study session. Thanks. I got Tina and Tasha follow-up questions on this particular matter. Yeah, in in this case just from a learning place of learning it it felt like this did not have an associated future action item at the time that it was developed and I think that would be a place where we would be all on CAC when we have our turn be looking at that for that specific connection.

1:55:32I Thank you for that observation council member. Um I think one of the things that I have wrestled with over the last few weeks is how to frame how to frame when the action could be status quo and how to indicate that in a way that is still a future action item and perhaps that is some some way um for a council to then come forward and have a formal vote around whether they want to continue with the code as written as it currently stands. That certainly is the presumption of the law that the laws you have passed are good laws and that they are in effect. Um and I understand the confusion that was created and I think that's helpful. Thank you. Mary, you have a follow-up? Yeah, I I um I want to acknowledge too.

1:56:33I I think in my five years here study sessions have been used uh perhaps not in the exact manner in which they needed to. There have been times where it is an informative item to get more conversation but the magnitude of the conversation is much larger than a matters item would have allowed cuz that is the other place it would have come, um which also doesn't have votes uh in a regular meeting. So, for example, we have had conversations around homelessness that have taken an entire 3-hour study session. Um where um sometimes it is informing and sometimes it is direction seeking. And so, I just want to acknowledge that um that that has been practice does not mean that is the way it needs to move forward. But, I just want to acknowledge that there are topics that are large and we need to be thoughtful and ask you all to be thoughtful about how do we program that in the context of a regular meeting. Um so, or we transition, another possibility is to transition a study session to a special meeting, and then we have a conversation there.

1:57:47Although, I just remind folks that in matters items, we would not be voting either. So, it it's an interesting conundrum, but I want to acknowledge that past. Appreciate that. And before I go any further, I want to correct something that I said a little earlier, which is that generally I'm the presiding officer these days, but we're actually talking about study sessions where I'm generally not the presiding officer. So, if it's coming under matters, it would go more towards me, but actually we're looking more to provide direction to the facilitators of the study sessions, which are usually not me. So, correcting that point. Taisha, you had another follow up? You're good. Okay, so I'm going to go back to our previous set of um question list, and I had Tara up next. I have a few questions, but I do want to acknowledge that it is complicated to figure out the direction forward.

1:58:31I appreciate that we're having this discussion. So, my first question is I don't have to tell you because you're the boss of Robert's you know Robert's Rules, obviously, cuz you're our city attorney, that straw polls, according to Robert's Rules, are for not for study sessions. So, probably it says it. I can read it to you. Do you want me to? Sure. Okay. I was AI. I checked with AI. Just kidding. Um, I hold on. Just give me a session a sex a second. What if I can't find it right right here? Happy to happy to um look at that with you though. Okay. Um, here it is. According to Robert's Rules of Order newly revised 12th edition, a straw poll is considered an informal non-binding vote used to gauge the temperature or opinion of the assembly on a matter.

1:59:34Generally, motions to take straw polls are not in order because they are considered meaningless. Yes, ma'am. So, that is completely correct. >> what we said what I said. That's right. Yeah. So, but the concept of a straw poll, it seems like we are vote It seems like we're voting, which is why I often will say in my vote. So, I'm wondering if we could Maybe it's not a big deal, but for instance, call it a sentiment indicator. I think that that is a something you could suggest to your colleagues, which is a fine idea. Um, you know, I know in some meetings we take a sentiment indicator with a thumbs up, a thumbs down, or a middle thumb. Mhm. Not a middle finger, but a middle thumb. So, I am >> >> So, recently and I'm bringing this to everybody's attention cuz you and I had this discussion. I don't think it was secret.

2:00:29When I took a straw poll and I indicated that I wanted to do one thing, but I was the five to four swing vote. And then community went crazy, right? Swing indicator. Swing See, to me it was a vote. So, then I said, "Can I change this vote?" and you replied that it would be re-litigation, but how can you re-litigate at a straw poll of which there's no litigation? I know you explained this to me, but I'm actually going to ask you to explain it again. Sure. So here's Here's what I would say about this. Reconsideration of a decision If we're talking strictly about reconsideration of a vote, that falls under Robert's Rules, which speaks only to regular or special meetings. And so there's a bit of a distinction there. But what the rules that you all have promulgated as a council say that when you have provided a decision, you will not revisit that decision absent a material change of law or fact.

2:01:57Isn't the decision though just an opinion? It's like a It's not even a decision the straw the um >> It's a non-binding opinion to go forward and explore something. I would agree with that. >> Do you mind if I chime in here, Chair? >> Please. Cuz as I understood the guidance that you gave at the time, it was not that you couldn't change your direction at a future meeting when the item came back to us, but that scheduling a a a a new item or scheduling an item before it would naturally come back to us on the same topic, that scheduling of that item would essentially constitute the reconsideration or re-litigation. That's right. Um And and I'll get back to the stated purpose of study sessions, though not always used this way, but the stated purpose is to bring back a future action item. And that would be the time then for you to make a a decisive move about whether you support or not by voting yes or no. Okay. So, then my last question, my final question, sorry I had so many, um is let's say we're having a study session and there and I'm not blaming anybody, but we let's say we feel or some of us feel or I feel, I'll just speak for myself,

2:03:16that I didn't get enough information on a subject or what information I got was not in a bad way biased, but we're humans. What do I do then? Can I then say, "Hold on, I don't want to do a a straw poll at this study session, we're not ready?" Yes, absolutely. So, I would say it is incumbent upon you to say if you do not feel like you have enough information. And if one of the ways that you feel like you don't have enough information is that you feel like the information is missing a particular perspective on an item, let's say you you you uh your impression of the information presented is that it all is in the column that would um encourage you to move forward and you want to know what are the things that would encourage you to just keep the status quo, you should you should call a point of order and say that.

2:04:20Can I also just add uh and Teresa, correct me if I'm wrong, that direction could also be there is not enough information here and I need more information. That itself is direction. It means that we will need to come back, right? So, it is for you to let us know what you need. Oh, yes. Just matches said, is that only if there's consensus What do you mean majority? I'm just saying one person can't derail the study session. Sorry to cut you off, but you would still need a consensus of council to say there's not enough information to say come back at another time, correct? You would need to forgive that direction versus one person halting the whole conversation or decision to be made. That's right, and I can think of um times council member where your colleagues have said during a vote, I don't feel like I have adequate information to support this, so I'm I'm going to vote against it.

2:05:14And to clarify >> in a in a vote. And to clarify, consensus in this case is defined by a majority of council. Correct. Um Cuz I often think of consensus as being close to unanimity, but in this case it's a majority. That's right, and that's one of the things certainly you all could talk about tonight and set some parameters around. Uh but today what staff has looked for is an indication like a nod of five that at least five people are interested in moving forward in a particular direction. Otherwise, it doesn't seem as if the juice would be worth the squeeze. Very good. Mark, do you have a follow-up on this question? >> I actually wanted to discuss the concept of relitigation. Okay, well, I'm coming down the line here, so I'll get to you shortly. So, I got Tina Ryan.

2:06:07Yeah, I have a couple clarifying questions. One is that it um after a study session, we provide a summary of the of the session as well as the direction that was given. Do we feel that there's a way to include the direction by council member in the written record? >> inquired about that. Um and and forgive me for putting our city clerk on the spot, but I understand that minutes are in a summary fashion for this and and not not by council member. Um but the the question um Alicia is whether the summaries of study sessions could indicate direction by council member. So, for example, perhaps perhaps a a could the minutes say um council members Speer, Benjamin, Weaver, Brockett, and Marq- Marquess um indicated support for further exploring outlining pickles in the city of Boulder.

2:07:27Well, that's really relatively kind of a tricky question. Because we still go back to the fact that the study sessions are not action meetings. So, there's no minutes that are required for those, right? >> Right. And so, with that being said, the departments prepare their own study session summary as they saw the information that they were seeking from council. So, wrapping that up, there's no official way to record a study session. That would have to be at the the attorney's direction and of course the city manager's direction because that is considered an internal document where no action was taken. So, therefore, not required. I would add to um the nature of direction can often be extremely varied and uh sometimes in the vein of um like to explore some things, not others. How do we move forward? Uh recently we talked about talking to the pollster and seeing what that looks like. It is it is a little bit more art than science. Um and what we are looking for and trying to hear is as uh Teresa mentioned, something akin to a nod cuz it does set staff moving in a particular direction. But there are many times in study sessions that it's it's not the it's more directionality, but not the precise thing. So, it is hard to

2:08:59attribute um with precision. I would also be concerned if we start to get down the road of individual attribution that that might be confused with voting. You know, I I get that and it's just and I think uh well, we'll talk about comments later. Um but it it is uh but we are providing video of the meeting, correct? Correct. There are videos of each meeting on our YouTube channel and there's a link to those on our website. Okay. And do we provide a transcript of the meeting? I believe YouTube provides a transcript, but I don't believe staff does, no. Okay. Yeah, that's good. Um Okay. And then do we have um and this is just such basic knowledge. Do we have informational items that are different than study sessions where where specifically staff wouldn't ask a question?

2:09:56Yes. >> give an overview and do we call that an informational item or do we call it a study session? We often have those in study sessions, though occasionally we will have those in an agenda meeting under matters from the city manager. And so, some examples that I can provide to you are a municipal court update, an update on police department. Uh we had a an update on flock cameras. Uh those were all information items. They don't happen to be slotted under something called information item, though you all could change the council rules of procedure to have that. Um the council rule of procedure lays out what the agenda item topics are. Okay, thanks. Before I go to the next question, just to clarify, no one on council has ever called for banning pickles, just in case the pickle lobby is getting upset. So, I personally love pickles. Yes, I do, too. There we go. All right, going down the line, Ryan. Okay, Teresa, this is very very thorough, so thank you for all this. Um I I just want to make sure I've got a few things. So, just a few clarifying questions and examples. First, okay, so if a majority of council in a study session supports moving forward on something, would it be considered relitigation to

2:11:14have a hearing on that item? No. No. The the decision on whether to have a public hearing or not is a decision around how to bring forward the formal action. And so, it would not be considered relitigation unless unless in a study session there was consensus to bring something back in a particular way. So, for example, if for some reason council decided that it wanted to say, um bring this back as a resolution, and five people indicated support for that, then it seems that it would be relitigating it to change the form of that. But most typically, council would not provide that kind of direction and would leave that to the province of CAC. Thank you. And actually follow up on this one. So, council acts through resolution, motion, or ordinance. So, that's um the type of action, I guess. But then separately, there's the matter of the the type of the meeting or the type of the the decision form because there's consent, there's hearing.

2:12:26Do those have a What do we call those? So So, items on the consent agenda are in the form of a resolution, a a motion, or an ordinance. There is nothing on the consent agenda that is not in the form of one of those. So, you are still acting by resolution, motion, or ordinance. Public hearings most often involve an ordinance, though certainly the council has the discretion and CAC has the discretion to set a public hearing on something that is not an ordinance. For example, I don't know if this is the case or not, but it is I imagine Well, I know that the city has climate action resolutions. I think it's entirely possible that those had a public hearing. Okay. So, I think I'm hearing it's actually not inconsistent uh to have a hearing even if if if council says it's a whether it's an ordinance, resolution, or a motion, unless I suppose if they specified it's not going to be any hearing.

2:13:42If they specify the the for the the way it is to be brought back. Right. Mhm. So, to summarize it, a res whether it's a resolution, motion, or ordinance, that does not uh require that it happen any of this that happen either on a consent or hearing. I would refine that just a bit. So, your council rules of procedure say that ordinances on second reading go to public hearing with a few exceptions. And so, ordinances often will have a public hearing. Okay. Okay, I'll leave it at that for now. Second question. If So, if council in a business meeting votes against something that the council majority previously had voted for in a straw poll, but it's not voting because it's just a straw poll. Is that re-litigation? That's not re-litigation and it is it in fact has happened where council has provided direction to staff to go go forth and further explore, um bring back information, and then when presented with the item in the future for action, council has said, "Thank you for your work, staff. We decline to take we we we vote no and we decline to take this up at this time." Great. Okay, thanks.

2:15:03And then um another question. So, my mental model of of council in a study session of moving forward um towards a council action in saying staff, "Yes, we'd like to go ahead with this." Is essentially council directing staff to prepare a proposal in the like in the affirmative that would come back to council. And that So, That's a really useful way to think of it. Okay. Can you repeat that? Well, just a way to that I had thought about it and I guess Teresa agrees it is if council in council in a study session in with a majority straw poll says, "We'd like to move this policy forward." What council's effectively saying is staff should prepare a proposal to come back to council. And that proposal will agree with with the um the straw poll, but it hasn't had action yet. So, it has to come back to council for a for a full um consideration. That's right. And I I suppose I would add the the caveat here that um council also may say we don't need you to prepare a proposal.

2:16:12We're good where we are. Which would be no action. Oh, okay. So, but but in order for it to come back for council action, it would need to be prepared as a proposal by staff. >> Correct. >> So, saying we're good just means there's no council action. We're not requesting you to help us with council action. Correct. So, you know, imagine that staff um, presented you an idea in a study session. Sua sponte, uh, on our own, made out of whole cloth. Um, and council said yeah, we're not we're not interested in doing that. That would just be the status quo. We wouldn't then have to take action to not do that. Yeah. Great. Okay, just a couple more. Um, in a study session, council cannot lock out scenarios uh, for future council action that would normally be required. I mean, it's the minimum wage example. I think you kind of got to it, but just like for example, if if if a majority of council said in a study session, we're going to look at an ordinance, we're going to consider an ordinance in 6 months, um, we don't want you to research the status quo. But we can't lock we can't lock out the the that the scenario of it not existing just because it was in a study

2:17:29session. Like it would still need to come to the hearing. That's accurate, um, because council could when when faced with all of the choices council could vote no on anything new and what that would do if uh, functionally is maintain the status quo. But sometimes staff will present the status quo as an option in the event that a majority of council says, yes, that's what we want. Don't move forward with the the of this. Got it. Okay, thank you. And just one more question. Um in the example that a council member in a study session feels like they don't have enough information to move forward or it's just it's moving too fast, they call a point of order to say I I'm not comfortable I haven't had my questions answered, but they're in the they're not in the majority. I'm hearing tough, it moves forward.

2:18:22How would that be I guess we don't we have a process for recording straw polls in a in a study session, but I'm just trying to think normally in a in a business meeting if you abstain, it's considered a vote yes, I think it's an affirmative vote. You could vote against something. If you abstain, that's a yes vote, but but another choice in an actual vote is to say, "I don't feel I have enough information to support that, so I'm not going to support it. I'm going to vote no." Okay. So, a no I'll go ahead. Yeah, not we're not there yet, but um I'm sorry, Ryan. Go ahead. There was something you said that sparked a thought, but >> Just the final thought was just um if you've got two council members in a study session who say, "I don't I don't have enough to go on. I don't feel like I'm for or against this. We're just I'm not ready yet. There's not a there's not something other than a yes or a no."

2:19:24Correct. In a study session, that's true. There's there's nothing to do about that in in the moment other than to decide how you want to weigh in or not. However, if we're hearing that from a council member, even if it's just a minority, one, two, maybe even three, we will take remedial measures. Rest assured, staff, when we hear you say, "We don't I don't feel like I have enough information," we're doing our best in the evening to provide that information to you. And we'll do our best to follow up and provide the information to you so that when it comes time for an action item, an actual decision via vote, you are appropriately prepared and informed. Great. Okay, and then just to follow up to my last question is based on what you said, if you're facilitating this if one is facilitating a study session, they're hearing of a few people say they're not ready they're not comfortable. Does the facilitator have space to change course and say, "Actually, I think we should not end this meeting now. We we should we should you know, recess, continue, or something."

2:20:33Even if that's not in the majority or I guess even if it is in the majority, but I'm just thinking does the facilitator have space to just say, "Look, I'm trying to be a do the facilitation here and we don't have the time today." Uh the facilitator is sharing the meeting. So, the facilitator has really quite a lot of influence. Um it's interesting because your rules of adjournment actually only apply to a regular meeting or a special meeting, not to a study session. And so, um Do you mind if I offer a suggestion, Teresa? I think like in an instance like that, Ryan, what I might think is that a council member could say, "You know what? I I don't have enough information. I feel like we shouldn't proceed further with giving direction and we should ask for for more information and then come back to this at a later time." And the facilitator could say, "Well, does anybody else feel that?" And if they see some heads nodding, they can say, "All right, well, I'd like to straw poll this this question. How many people would like us to put a a hold on this and ask for more information before we come back." And then if there's a majority of hands are raised for that straw poll,

2:21:40then we could say, "Okay, all right, we're not going to give specific direction. We'll wait for more information." So, And that's the direction to bring back more information. >> Yeah. Did that all sound good, Teresa? >> Yes, absolutely. And and thank you for the assist. That's it. Thank you and thanks all for letting me go through all that. Great. And yeah, Mark. Yeah. Just a couple of questions. Am I Am I therefore correct in saying that there's no issue of relitigation between a study session and a formal council action because you can as an individual change your mind as a council you can change your mind. Correct. Okay. Now, I I want to talk about the actual um issue with respect to relitigation and and when we're talking about um formal council action. And and as I understand it that can only happen if there's a significant change in law or fact.

2:22:29>> Material change. According to whom? Who is Who judges the materiality of Five of you. Okay. So, that rule goes on if if you'd like to know, I can Hold, please. >> >> I'll be right with you. Do we have hold music? I have a call I have a call of we Do you, Mark? You may Yes, you may. Asking that while Teresa is researching. Okay. I've got what I need, but go ahead. Is material factor of or change in material factor law? And I think in the last year or so we also we also recognize that another one is a time expiration attached to it. That is when there's a new council seated, there's also an expiration time to uh reconsideration. I just want to make sure Yes. >> also mentioned as well. So, it's not an indefinite that there's a Yes.

2:23:24>> Neither of those two criteria have to be met. If there's a new council that's seated, it resets the clock effectively. That's right. So, I will I will I will come to your question momentarily. Um but Matt's point being that relitigation is the the com the the composition of council revisiting a decision this council made. So, when a new council is seated, there aren't items there are not considerations of re-litigation until you start taking action as a that sitting council. Okay. Yeah. But, for a material change of law or fact, your rules provide a material change in law or fact means a change that if having occurred before the prior council decision would have made it unlikely that a majority of council would have supported the prior decision. Okay. So, >> If five or more council members support reconsidering a prior decision, the CHC shall be directed to schedule a substantive conversation at a later meeting. Okay. And so, five of you would have to say, "Yes, this change is so material that had I had this information, I may have voted differently." Now, does that extend to the example where I am on the long end of a five to four vote, and afterwards Taisha comes up to me and says, "You didn't think about the following things." And I listen to her,

2:24:59and I go, "Whoa, she's got a great point. I've changed my mind." That's not a material change in law or fact. The law didn't change, and the facts didn't change. Your hearing changed, and Mark, that doesn't count. >> Okay. I mean, that that's >> >> It seems to me that that what constitutes a change in fact is is a little bit attached to the person. No, sir. No. I Well, I I respectfully disagree. So, um let's say that let's say that staff presented you facts that sodium is bad for you, and that green is a horrid color. And that cucumbers should not be adulterated into pickles. >> >> I've been wondering about that, by the way. It's It's left me sleepless on many nights. Well, let's say that tomorrow the ADA comes out with an opinion that the sodium in pickles is just the right amount to maintain health.

2:26:10That would be a change of fact. Okay. What if it's new information to me that Tasha presents to me after I've made a a vote and a decision? The record is the is the record. And you all are presented with the same information. If a colleague has something to add, they should have done that during the course of their comments. If If I may add, so I 100% agree with you, Teresa. I will note that our rules can be waived by a majority vote. So, if after your illuminating discussion with Tasha, you change your mind and then went to and chatted with council members and say, "I really feel strongly we should we should do this over because I wasn't even thinking about the sodium content of the of the pickles." Then the council could take a vote to suspend the re-litigation rules and say, "You know what? It's not really re-litigation, but you know, let's have another vote on this." That's right. It does require a supermajority.

2:27:13Supermajority. Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, yeah. We'll We'll call it the pickle rule. Yeah. We're going to be hearing from the pickle lobby. Sick. Brooking, can I quickly call call call query, Aaron? Quick. Okay. Um so, but what if a council member says instead of Tasha gave me illuminating information, let's say that you and talked about this earlier that somebody feels that staff didn't give them all the information. That's certainly a point you could raise to your colleagues. And and and then your colleagues could decide whether that constitutes a material change of law or fact. And you're saying that's you need a supermajority for that decision? So you uh to reconsider something you need a a bare majority, so five. To suspend the rules and say we don't care if there was a material change of law or fact, we want to reconsider this anyway, that would require a supermajority.

2:28:26Okay, let's get to Nicole. She's been waiting patiently. Thank you. Um I just have one one question. So a straw poll, right? We are fairly clear at this point. It's not a decision, right? Um but also it's interpreted as one by the public, by the press often, and honestly even sometimes by us like Terry, you were saying about how you sometimes accidentally call it a vote. So I my question is what what purpose is it serving, right? What's the problem that we're solving with straw polls that we couldn't solve um with procedures like we did last week, which I actually really loved that where we each had a chance to um to chime in and very specifically answer questions and staff, you know, you were taking notes and and collecting um information there. We did it without a straw poll. I guess it it what what is it doing? What what purpose is it serving?

2:29:16>> Sure. So that's an absolutely no another valid way to approach it. I will tell you it is more time-consuming and it is cumbersome for staff. If that is the will of council, we are happy to do it. Um but your will take longer. And we will be seeking quite a lot of clarification. I will tell you there was a complicated chart that resulted. Quite a complicated chart. Okay. Two really fast questions. Oh, super quick, hopefully. Super quick. Love to move on to comments. It's really It's really quick. Is there when we're in study sessions and staff is looking for consensus and it's not a straw poll, is the direction always five mentions or considerations, or do you sometimes do direction with fewer than five individual points of indication? It's a good question. Um, five ensures that we pursue a uh more information on a particular path.

2:30:22Uh occasionally, there will be four. And that four seems um strong enough, and then perhaps there are several other council members who are simply undecided. And And in that instance, we may very well take that under consideration as well as a path forward and bring bring forward a proposal that includes that. Okay. And then my second question, and we might have just talked about this, but I'm not sure it's the same. We do a a directional straw poll, and someone realizes they didn't want to vote that way. Can they just call you and say, "I'm now I now don't like that direction. I don't like option C anymore." No, I I would consider that reconsideration of a of a of a decision. Even if it's in the straw poll? Correct. Okay. Thanks for all those excellent and penetrating questions. So, let's move to comments, and then I would encourage folks to be pithy in their comments and directed at ways you think we might do things a little differently or to affirm how we have done things, uh to sort of suss out whether uh we want to conduct uh study sessions any differently.

2:31:34So, who would like to get us started? Ryan. I have just two suggestions, and um the first is that if well, this is mostly thought out um through this conversation, but um if we're going to have a study session that will be leading is expected to leave lead directly or pretty close to directly to a council decision, we should ideally have the proposal for that in the memo packet, or at least some some indication of this is going to this is intended to lead to a council action, and here's how we envision that going forward, and that would allow in the study session for some consideration of that, and not getting to the end and people kind of thinking, "Huh, what like okay, now what?" Um and I that hasn't happened often, but um I do think that I would like to see that.

2:32:25And then I'll just go on with the or I would like to see I'd like feedback on that actually, cuz I just anyway, I'll leave it at that. Um the second one is I think that the the CAC I think it's the right approach that the CAC does the the scheduling and, you know, does generally the final kind of ratification of what's the how does it appear on the agenda. Um and I know that if uh a council member could always once it comes to a business meeting, they could say, "I move that we take this off the agenda and do something else with it." But I I feel like um that's a kind of a dramatic and maybe like a surprise thing to do. And so for an item that is a big stakes item, I I feel like we should maybe just consider it normal and appropriate that a council member could essentially suggest a call call up if it's maybe on a consent item, we could just say, "Look, we I I would like us to see this as a hearing um or in a different form and then do it, you know, do a five vote or whatever whatever the the action is.

2:33:31Um just just just to suggest that CAC doesn't probably do the right thing 99% of the time, but that some issues sometimes the substance gets wound up, I think, into the um the procedure and council should have a clear way to say, "I I'd like to call a vote to see that ask if we can treat this differently in our next council meeting." Those are my two suggestions. Thanks for that, Ryan. And I'll just look to Teresa cuz I believe we do have a mechanism for calling up a CAC decision. Yeah, uh uh a couple of things here. Um with respect to your first point, uh I believe that currently what staff does is um phrases it as the the questions for council. And so, if it would be helpful, we can say, "We are seeking direction on the following items."

2:34:20Um we can we can certainly be explicit in that language. Um as for how something appears on the agenda, uh there is an opportunity under your current rules for someone to challenge, if you will, uh the way CAC has scheduled something. And I'm I'm happy to look at that and get back to you about it, but there is a mechanism for that currently. Also, as you note, there is a mechanism by which any council member a council member can identify something on the consent agenda and ask for a public hearing on that item. And um then it would be rescheduled in the future for a public hearing. There's also a no surprises rule, so if a council member anticipated doing that, a hotline could be sent out indicating that that the council member intends to do that with a consent item.

2:35:28But Teresa, I don't believe an individual can um unilaterally pull an item off of consent for a public hearing. They can ask for it to be pulled off for separate discussion and a vote, but I think either of those require a a majority vote. >> I am. You are. Mhm. And it's recorded. Second readings. Second readings shall generally be scheduled for public hearing. The council agenda may committee may schedule second reading of an ordinance on consent only for the following. Dot dot dot. Other ordinances that are routine in nature which do not elicit public interest and to which no council member objects. Very good. So, ordinances, second reading of ordinances may be pulled off unilaterally for a public hearing. Yes, sir. But other consent agenda items may not be done unilaterally. There is nothing in the rules indicating that they can be. Right. So So that that is something that I would expect would require a majority vote. For a motion or resolution, yes. Or a first reading.

2:37:26Yes. Can you say that one more time? I'm focusing. Sure. So um only in the instance of the of a second reading of an ordinance that is placed on consent may a council member say "I object. I believe this needs a public hearing." Okay. unilaterally. Correct. But for first reading of ordinances or for motions or resolutions, it cannot be pulled off of consent for a public hearing unilaterally. It would require majority of council to assent to that. That's accurate. Thanks. Does that clarify? Thanks, Teresa. Just a quick follow-up. You mentioned there's an additional um some kind of mechanism available to council members that you would come back on. So if if you're willing to do that and share with all of us, I'd I'd appreciate it. Or I can share it, but Yes. >> us all to know what that is.

2:38:26I am happy to do that. Um would it be acceptable to you if I had some time to look at that and revisit that those part of the rules? Absolutely. Just want to make sure we all know the same thing that I know. >> Okay. Thank you. Matt to Teresa. Follow up. Well, I'm just curious about are we Is it appropriate to I have some comments, but I also want to make sure it's respectful to Ryan to comment on his suggestions. And so I don't know where's the right How would you suggest >> I would just wait for your regular comments. And then do it all >> And then do it all. >> Okay. I just don't want to stay on that topic. Okay, then I'll then I'll wait. Okay. And I I have it. Teresa's got it.

2:39:04Does it relate to pickles? It could. >> >> No. Appeals of CAC scheduling decisions. This is in your rules under item three, agenda subsection E6. Appeals of CAC scheduling decisions. A council member may appeal a CAC scheduling determination by requesting a full council review during matters from the mayor and members of council at an upcoming meeting. CAC will determine the date for the full council discussion of the appeal. Discussions regarding CAC scheduling decision appeals shall be scheduled for no more than 15 minutes and shall be limited to whether the council will consider the scheduling item during a future agenda. Implied in there is in and in what form. Well, I haven't seen any other hands raised yet, so I'll go to you next, Matt. You can just do all of your comments and then I'll go to Tina.

2:40:08Um all right, let me first since it was fresh on the mind, I'll just maybe respond to a couple things Ryan mentioned as he thought of and I appreciate the the where he's going with this. Um with regards to giving direction and wanting there to be a sort of understood outcome from that, like a proposed action. I think that that's relevant if the action is new and not maintaining the status quo cuz I think it is weird and redundant for us to reaffirm the status quo of things that are already laws on our books. So, I think that that's a weird mechanism if that's the option. If it's new, then I think that that makes total sense. So, that's a that's an interesting one. I I mean, we've kind of been saying it without saying it. We're we're dancing around the airport discussion a little bit. We'll get to that in detail next week, but in terms of the process, I do find that we may have acted or CAC may have acted a little bit outside the the proper lines on this one and so it's just worth naming it because um study session there was a consensus that staff would either look at a resolution or a motion and come back to us with that action. It

2:41:16was sort of understood that it would come back under consent just which vehicle we would use was to remain determined. Then CAC said, "Well, no, let's have another conversation about the vehicle." Where it seems like the more proper way would have been staff to suggest that vehicle as either a motion or a resolution, put it on consent, and it's at that moment under consent that if we wanted to have a further conversation or pull it that then that's the action to do so. But it does seem a little weird that we were given direction to staff and that direction is now held up and in stasis while another conversation which does seem like a reconsideration to some extent because we already gave direction about the vehicle which is a motion or resolution has already been given. So, I think we may have gotten out of step a little bit based on the guidance that we heard from Teresa that at consent would have been the moment that a majority of council could have pulled it if it wanted to either one have a bigger conversation or turn it into a public hearing. That would have been the proper moment to do that not in a single email or in CAC.

2:42:23So, I I'm I want to clarify that because I I think that we've kind of missed It just seems a little off given how we've heard so clearly about the linkage of the chain. I have other comments but you certainly want to respond to that. So, respectfully council member I think that's a point for next week. Um I Yeah. I know we were dancing around it but I talking about it as well. Um another comment about this in general um I would just leave with context. We got to straw polls because I remember when I first got on council, we were giving direction and it seemed like there were nine word salads being delivered to staff and sometimes that feedback would come back and we'd be like, yeah, that's not that it really the direction we heard and then staff would go back and they'd have to come back to us again.

2:43:06And so that ambiguity was drawing out conversations, resources, time, and impacting other work. So the straw polls are actually a great way to refine that. So I think knowing how we got here is important so we don't swing the pendulum back the other way um and lose that valuable tool going forward. So I I I think we're good with where we are. Sure, maybe there could have been a different uh framing of a question, but I don't think that invalidates the vehicle we're using in terms of straw polls and that mechanism. Um so I I think sure we can tighten up lessons learned about how we framed a question or whether it's a status quo or not, but I don't think that that really impacts how we want to be doing straw polls going forward. I think it's worthwhile, it's working, and we're clear about them as not votes. They are direction or they are um personal impressions or shaping where where your word? Sentiment indicators.

2:43:55So anyway, I I think we're good with where we're at. These are just good lessons of maybe shaping questions, but I don't think there's much to change here. Thanks. I got Tina and then Rob and then Nicole. Yeah, I'm I'm somewhat similar to Matt, but I would go um just a little bit further than a lesson. I I do think we need to be tied to an action item and our and I don't think we should change our council procedure. So this is it said it should be in preparation for something else. I think we should stick with that. Um I think it's important to um to frame our questions very carefully and I think that CAC can This is really a council issue and a community issue. So it's not just about are we right or wrong, but did we conduct a meeting in a way that took into account the communities presence um and did it did it even look like we made a decision without a public hearing? And that's what we're really grappling with is is that you know, that community element is critical because that's why I'm here is because of the community. So, you know, when CAC is looking at a study session question, and I think they should have those questions, think about, gosh, is

2:45:01this going to look like a vote that has a material impact without having had a public hearing or looking like it was decided before the public hearing. And sometimes, so for instance, with the minimum wage, it's just subtle. The easiest way to have accomplished that would have just not to have been to have pulled on the status quo because it started giving the impression that that was not under consideration, even though technically it is, of course. Anything is under consideration. But we could have just straw pulled which new options do we want to consider, and then gone and taken our action from both the status quo and any new action. So, I think that's the piece that I think we all need to be really cognizant of is what is what does it look like to the community? We have latitude which questions we ask. We can frame them in a way that it doesn't look like a vote.

2:45:51Um, and we can also try in our own personal outlets to let people know how we um were giving consensus. The other thing is it would be helpful if there's if consensus or direction is going to be decided through something other than five mentions, just to be clear at the beginning of the of the meeting, this is how we're gathering direction today. I'm looking to hear this word five times or three times or, you know, just so we know what we want to do because I want the meetings to be shorter, too. So, I don't really want to repeat what Ryan and Tasha and Mark said, but if you need a fourth repetition, then I want to jump in because I think they all had a great idea. So, that's the part where that kind of clarity will help as well. So, um and again, I think this is a good conversation, and I don't think um I just think we're going to continue to evolve and learn, and uh we can just be more careful with what we ask uh in the future.

2:46:46Thanks, Tina. Robin and then Nicole and then Tara. Yeah, thanks. Um just kind of tagging on what Ryan said when um the verbage is we're seeking direction, maybe we even include we're seeking non-binding direction um or we're giving staff non-binding direction. Just some kind of clarity for the public, you know, to Tina's point, they're watching this. And then the second thing, I guess this is kind of a question. Um to Tina's point, like we have our own uh groups of people that are speaking to us and when we have the uh the CAC, I guess then it puts the responsibility on the city council, on us, to ask for a public hearing through a hotline if we determine that the subject matter um is appropriate for that. That's kind of an interrogative. Sorry. I mean, you could just send a request to CAC. That That would be the quickest and easiest thing.

2:47:48Right, but wasn't Teresa, didn't you say you would like it on a hotline? So Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, sorry. I think I confused the issue a little bit. If um if you know prior to CAC scheduling something uh that you uh council any council member would like to this to appear at a particular place on the agenda, you could send that request to CAC. But let's say something gets scheduled in a way that you disagree with, then you could appeal CAC's decision by the manner that we discussed, uh which would also be a request to CAC for an appeal. Um or if something appears as an ordinance on second reading on the consent agenda and you believe that you want to pull that for a public hearing, then you could indicate that through a hotline.

2:48:45So, it's kind of three-pronged. Okay. Yeah. Do you mind if I if I just pop in here? At least I think with the current folks who are on the CAC a fair amount, if a council member wants a full consideration, we'll just make it a full consideration. So, a quick note to CAC should accomplish that. I think we'll be uh responsive to those requests. Sorry, Robin. I didn't want to cut you off. Did you have anything else? No, that was it. Thank you. Okay. Nicole and then Tara. Thank you. Um So, one thing that I'm observing right now in community and our discussions is that words matter a lot and the way that people perceive actions matters. Um we uh in that context, um for me, straw polls, as they are understood in the community right now, um are unhelpful. We are governing in a time when there is so much mistrust and government at all levels. Um and I understand there is utility in the information that comes from it and and I I wonder if there's a way we can be sensitive to the understanding in community and fostering trust in community just by changing our language a little bit. One thing I've noticed in community is that it seems like there's more familiarity with this idea of a not or five or a not or three.

2:50:06And I, you know, we talked about uh like a sentiment poll um instead of a straw poll, but I wonder if if pulling on this language of not or five or not or three might actually be more helpful and more um more useful in that context and I see you starting to talk. So, before I continue, I just want to make sure I'm not doing any like not saying anything I shouldn't. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to >> Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. No. I I just figured I thought maybe I was saying something wrong. But so, what I'm wondering is if if we could um frame the questions not not necessarily a straw polls per se, but something like um is there a not of five to work on an ordinance to ban pickles? Is there a not of three to look at the sodium content of five brands of pickles? Things like that, right? That that they're I I think that community understands that more as direction, not necessarily decision.

2:50:59And for all of us, we are getting in the habit of thinking about straw polls not as decisions, but there are 100 and some thousand people out there who don't necessarily see it that way and I think it might be helpful in this particular moment we're operating in um to think about it that way. Um and the other just other thought that I had was just on um I I appreciated the additional information on the um the uh CAC agenda, the the longer-term look ahead. And I'm wondering if that might be something that could be included as just a sentence or two um about what the different topics are when when we have them, when they appear on the CAC um agendas just so that there's a little more um time for people to just ask like what is that? What what's What is this topic about? That sort of thing to to um prevent surprises and I don't want to add work.

2:51:49Um but I think, you know, sometimes the uh the titles of those items are um are hard to understand or put in context. Um so anyway, that those those are the thoughts, but mostly I'm just I'm wondering if we can just change our language as we're facilitating study sessions to use not of five or not of three instead. Thanks, uh Tara. >> I Oh, you wanted to add in, please. So for um I I think that's a perfectly acceptable and viable idea. For direction, staff would be seeking a not of five. Because five is for direction, three is simply for research. Um query if you have three people saying I don't have enough information, is that a nod of three for additional research? Perhaps, perhaps. And And if I could just follow up on that, I mean, to me that that sort of fits in with how much time the additional research would take, right? I mean, I could ask, you know, give me a list of every city in the country that bans pickles, and, you know, two other people could agree with me, and you all could be like, "Do Do you want us to do other work or not?" Right? So, I I think there is some At least the way that I've, you know, heard that used before,

2:53:05sometimes you all are You all are the ones that get to say whether it's a nod of three or a nod of five, right, in that context. I I think that's accurate. We would likely, um, talk a little bit about trade-offs. What does it look like? A research question can be small, and it can be enormous. And then we have to think about what does that look like because there are times when, um, the magnitude of a research question really makes it a work plan item, which would be a nod of five. So, I agree with Nicole that, um, straw polling just after the community outcry just doesn't seem or I would want to go. That was a pretty big outcry. It was The outcry was actually about the wording. To a lot of people that talked to me, whether we should do nod of five, I don't know if even that is too strong.

2:53:56But, I'm going to leave that up to council or you to just so it's clear that it is not binding. I think Rob is correct, and if we say non-binding every single time and hear it, then I'll know that it's not a vote, and I won't be confused ever again, and say, "Oh, I just voted." cuz I You already told me 10 times non-binding. I think in the future, we're going to say "advisal". pre quid pro quo >> >> We're going to We're just going to throw a lot of Latin phrases at you and then say Latin phrases. Staff is seeking non-binding direction from council in the form of a nod of five. Okay. Listen, my husband's name is Robert and he's the one that came up with that phrase. So, I feel like that could be the same as Robert's Rules of Orders if we use the sentiment phrase.

2:54:50>> That's right. Nice. >> Just say. If you pick sentiment over your idea. I don't know which one. The second thing I want to say is I also agree on the CAC, but I'm going to ask council if we would consider doing something. We get that CAC piece of paper, request, whatever, that report. And I think it's I think it's behooves us all to look at it and say is this a study session item or should this be a special meeting item? I mean, it's in our hands and if we forget, we have another opportunity because um Alicia sends it twice. She sends it before and then she sends it after we did it. So, now we have two opportunities which is definitely like I was caught with by surprise that this all happened, but it was I'm on CAC all the time, so it was my responsibility. That will never happen again. Now I know what to look for, but maybe we should all say we're going to study the CAC papers from now on once or twice.

2:55:56Good to just see. Thanks for that, Tara. I'll go ahead and call on myself. Um so, I appreciate the discussion. I think the the clarity that we've gotten through all the questions that have been posed and then the answers that Teresa has provided has been really helpful and I think it's going to be really useful going forward as we go into study sessions in the future. I I will say that I think it's it it is extremely helpful to to get the will of council in um some kind of um no no some kind of indication of who wants to give direction a certain way. And I am absolutely open to the language around that. I think calling it, do we want to have an odd of five is perfectly reasonable. If we want to say, I want to get the indication of council sentiment, what's our sentiment indicator right now? I I'm I'm open to all of those and fine with not calling it a straw poll, but I think having some clear direction is extremely useful, as you've already said, for staff.

2:56:48And also for council and the community. I recall many meetings in my early years on council where people would throw out random comments during study sessions, and then you never knew whether those random comments had support from people and whether they would come back then in the eventual action item that we were to receive. So, um, I I think it's it's going to be really good that we sharpen our language here around non-binding and around avoiding the use of the term straw poll, but I think getting to the will of council through some concrete indicators extremely useful. And so I I do, um, want to to continue doing that. Yes, Nuryia. I I appreciate that. And and just, Mayor, I wanted to call out that you often in CACC, and I want to recognize that when there is an item that you are unfamiliar with, you call it out, you ask us what that is, and I just recommend if anybody sees CACC and has questions about that item, please reach out. I know many of you do already, but that is something we can say, "Oh, what is this item? What's it going to do?" And then we're happy to talk about it.

2:57:49Um, and then the other, um, thing I will just underscore in all this conversation is as we are listening for your sentiment, whatever that may be, it it really has to be, frankly, your responsibility to lift up what that is, right? It's about expectation setting for not just what we're hearing, but amongst your colleagues, because we are listening to that to Council Member Mosqueda's point. Um, and that doesn't have to take that long, I might um also add that we can often just say plus one and or mostly plus one, but this is where I differ cuz knowing where you differ also matters. So, really being thoughtful and intentional about what does that look like, I think is really important for us because if not, we will be constantly going back and for more clarity.

2:58:42Well, by the time the fifth person goes around, somebody has said something and we don't know what that looks like, right? So, I would just um elevate expectation setting for all of us about how we come into those sessions and what we say. >> >> Yeah, and then um I appreciate that in area. And then my my other uh point that I would say is that the staff I think is generally very good about that, but thinking in the outcome of this discussion about a very bright line between the questions for Council and then the potential future action items that might result from that direction from Council. So, um so that we can we and the community can be uh very clear on what those eventual action items where we would take an actual decision um would be.

2:59:23Yes. This real quick, I wanted to bring up one other thing. When Tina was talking earlier, she said that you said that if you don't have enough information, just say no. The problem is is the community went cra- got upset because they thought you said no, where really all she said was I don't have enough information, but it was taken as no. So, I don't love that idea as our only option when I just want to be clear that to state that that did happen and I wish I hope that we have a better way. Did we decide we did have a better way? I can't remember. It's been We were almost done, Tara. I We could talk about it next week. I may have created some confusion though because I think what I said was if you feel like you don't have enough information, speak up and let us try to provide that information in the moment.

3:00:20>> Okay. Right? And and if you speak up, perhaps enough of your colleagues will say, "You know, I'm having those same wonderings." and give direction for staff to provide further information at a future meeting. That was a good answer. Thanks. That was much better than my answer. So, that that was helpful. Does that get to your point? Okay. Does anyone have any further last final thoughts on this question? Mayor, yeah. I apologize, Mayor, but there's some clarity on one particular item. Um in your code, the way in which um study sessions are outlined are intended to have some action, some direction in one way or the other. And as I mentioned before, past practice has been that there are times when a topic is so large that it is more informative and we bring it there.

3:01:14We could I I think there was a perhaps a suggestion that we um no longer do that practice and that'd be difficult because we would have to find bump your regular meeting sessions to do that. We have tried in CAC to mark by asterisk those items that are not in the work plan, they're not in council priorities, and that do not require council actions. That doesn't mean that you all haven't asked us to bring things forward, but there are times in which it does not fit in a regular meeting. Would you want us to push that to a regular meeting and then there's delay? Would you like us to convert to a special meeting? Or do we continue to use uh the practice of using that in study session, in which case we may have to amend code.

3:02:01I I'm I guess I'll start. I would I would like to retain the option to do that, and if that requires amending our rules of procedures, then I would say let's add a small change to the rules of procedures, but maybe I'll look for a sentiment indicator from council if they are okay with that. As yes, is there a not a five to that if that it is required to continue to make that our practice that we make a small change to the rules of procedure. So it would be retaining the ability to to have maybe you can frame it which types of items at study sessions. Sure. So currently the council procedure rules provide that study sessions are for council to provide direction for staff for future items to be brought back as action items.

3:02:53The question in front of us or in front of you all right now is would you like to add to that that study sessions may also be used for information items. Very clearly stated. So are we going to it that defaults to even if direction from council is maintaining the status quo that there would be an affirmation action required. I think that's a different matter council member and and I think that's a fair question, but I believe the question on the table right now is about things that are purely informational. So for example, an update on how the police department is is doing. So So then what I'm going to ask for is an a not a five to allow for information only items to be brought forward at study sessions, which has been our practice for many years, but would technically require to change to our rules and procedures. And suddenly I've got a bunch of hands. Mark and then Tina.

3:03:57Yeah, I would support that. Um I'd like to keep the prospect of a purely informational study session if the subject matter does not require immediate action and it's something that could be relevant to our duties. Again, Tina. Yeah, and I think this kind of got to my question earlier in the meeting. Um, I think it might be nice if we could call it an informational session. Or study session information only. Nicole. Um, so basically what the the the question on the table is that we have a practice that exists that isn't a documented part of our council rules of procedure and so the question is do we wish to document this common practice for the benefit of us and future councils. That's right. Okay. So I'm going to go and ask uh for a nod of five if people would like to continue to allow informational items to be brought forward at study sessions by making a small change to our rules of procedure. So raise your hand if you would like to participate in that nod of five.

3:05:02But now it's not a nod. But you it's so hard to tell people to nod your head. >> nod vigorously for a minute. Set the timer so I can count. You're putting us in a pickle here, Tina. >> >> So raise your hand if you'd like to participate in a nod of five. Okay, so that's nine. Thank you. Um, does does that give you everything you need? No. Uh the other thing I heard from council was competing ideas about how to move forward with obtaining consensus, feedback about consensus. So uh I heard a sentiment indicator. I heard a nod of five. I heard a straw poll and it would be helpful if you all concluded in this conversation what the mechanism will be. So what I might suggest, cuz this was a what I heard and people can correct me if I'm wrong, is that people would like to stop using the phrase straw poll, but perhaps it could be up to the discretion of the facilitator to use different language.

3:06:12But if people feel differently, I'm happy to get a sentiment indicator or not a five about something else specific. >> >> I like the the phrase non-binding straw poll or non-binding not a five. Either one would would work very well. It's that to get people to understand that it's non-binding and it it can change later. Got it. Any other Tara? I actually like both because I feel like it depends on the subject. So you sometimes a sentiment indicator actually sounds better than a not a five for certain things. So I feel like we can use both, but that's just me. And >> >> it is a bit of a mouthful. Yeah. I like not a five non-binding. Fine, Bob. Sorry, Bob. Okay, so I'm going to I'll ask for a non-binding not a five. Um how many people would prefer the terminology non-binding not a five when this is asked for in the future?

3:07:18Rather than regular not a five? Yeah, so that's that's eight. So Yes, so then the direction that we will give to our future facilitators at study sessions is to ask for whether there is a non-binding not a five for the proposal on the table to give direction. We will add that to the script. That's nice. Good job, Mark. Yeah, that was Mark's. And Nicole's. And and Nicole's. Yeah, yeah. It was a combo. It was it Yeah, yeah. You all you all are good at doing that with each other. Um Teresa, is that everything you need? Say yes. Non-binding I believe I heard consensus on this, but the the last outstanding item on my notes are the request for staff to provide a short summary of the look ahead items. Oh, I have an idea. Oh, can I say my idea?

3:08:27I'll be quiet. Can I I I'll just for staff I'll say that um we can do most anything that you want in the agenda. We have done that already. We have made some changes. It will add staff time uh to what we do, and if that's what you desire, then we will figure that out. Um if you believe that that is necessary and the will of council. So, Nicole, here's the suggestion, which would be maybe for them to get back to us in an email with what the scope of the work ask would be, and then we can consider whether we want to take up that at a future meeting. Does that work? Is that all right for to get back to us with with the scope might be? Thank you. The anticipated items is right on the CAC sheet, though. Why do we need more than that? Or do you want them to just post that on somewhere?

3:09:13I'm confused. But go ahead and clarify, and but then they're going to get back to us. >> so sometimes there may just be one or two words to describe a topic, um and and that is sort of what what it is, right? So, it's just a is there a way without like eight of us, or sorry, the six of us who aren't on CAC asking staff repeatedly, "What's this item? What's this item? What's this item?" That there's just like a sentence or something that that sort of gets at that, um that shows up with the CAC agenda. But again, like that's a to- totally fine. Like I think if I It's not intended to add work, it's actually intended to try to save work. Just now that I think everybody's committed to looking at that CAC agenda in detail.

3:09:55There there may be more questions. I appreciate that and actually I think for many items are already spelled out because if they are ordinances or call up items, they're already there. If I'm understanding perhaps the ask more clearly, it is perhaps and it really lands a little bit more on those study session agendas, sometimes matter agendas where uh the topic is more general and doesn't have a this goes to ordinance X about what not. And we can certainly take a look at those and A try to title them a little bit better. Um and if we think there's there's something that could be added, we could um likely do that on a as needed basis or if there is questions from council, we can certainly clarify. I think we can take that discretion if that is okay with council.

3:10:44Great. All right, I think we are done here. Um I think we can expect a CAC request for an ordinance to ban pickles sometimes in the near future, but that's aside. Any other final words before we wrap up here tonight? Seeing none, I'll close this out at 8:36 p.m. Just 6 minutes over schedule.